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Poch: In or Out? - You CAN change your vote

Should Poch stay or go?

  • Stay

    Votes: 657 55.3%
  • Go

    Votes: 532 44.7%

  • Total voters
    1,189

rabbikeane

Well-Known Member
Mar 29, 2005
6,951
12,788
- Levy pocketing huge salaries while underpaying players has long been a sticking point in the dressing room (one player’s agent compares him to Mike Ashley)

Can very well see players and especially agents having this view. But it's false and ridiculous as well.
We have had the 6th highest income and the wages mirror it. Eriksen has an offer to equal Kane (his basic) and Ndombele wages, if he and Alderweireld had accepted their offer we'd have 6 of the 25 best paid players in the Premier League.
We've paid what we should and could, we're not bankrolled but self sufficient.
 

guiltyparty

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2005
9,023
13,524
Can very well see players and especially agents having this view. But it's false and ridiculous as well.
We have had the 6th highest income and the wages mirror it. Eriksen has an offer to equal Kane (his basic) and Ndombele wages, if he and Alderweireld had accepted their offer we'd have 6 of the 25 best paid players in the Premier League.
We've paid what we should and could, we're not bankrolled but self sufficient.

Just passing on the info.
 

spursfan77

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2005
46,685
104,964
If you've watched football for any length of time, you can often spot when a manager's time is up. Sadly, I'm seeing that with Poch. I was so proud to have him as our manager, the way he spoke, the way the team played, everything. I had hoped he would be here for a couple of decades at least, and lead us to years of glory...and for a while it looked like that might be something that was going to happen.

Something changed a while back, though. The way Poch spoke started to change. The team stopped playing fantastic football. Results started to go against us. I was thrilled to make the CL final, we all were. But we could also all see that something was wrong. Results don't lie over a long period, and for the last year our league form has been absolutely terrible. It's become quite obvious that Poch either doesn't know how to sort it, or is not able to sort it if he does know how.

Poch isn't the man to take us forward, and that's the truth of it, like it or not...and I for one really don't like it. But it is what it is...he's not going to be able to turn it around, and keeping him is only delaying the inevitable. If we want to keep moving forward as a club we need to make the hard decisions, and getting rid of Poch is probably one of the hardest decisions the club will have had to take since ENIC took over. Credit in the bank? Not in top level football. Start going backwards and it's game over.

Do I want Poch gone? Hell no. I want the old Poch back, the one who was a gentleman, the one who put together a team that played quality, exciting football and won games. I don't want the new Poch, the sulky one, the bitter one, the ridiculously stubborn one, the one who talks complete bollocks and hasn't got a clue how to set the team up. He has always had limitations tactically, and his in-game management has never been very good, but what he did have covered, in the main, what he lacked. That is no longer the case.

Whatever is wrong with the team is down to Poch. Whether it's the training, the motivating...whatever it is. Poch is the manager and it's his job to sort it. If he can't do his job properly he shouldn't be in it. Which leads back to the opening line of this post: sometimes a manager's time is up, and you just have to accept it, whether you like it or not. Poch's time is up. I hate it, but it's how it is.

I support Spurs. Always. I've loved players and managers, some of them I will love for ever...but I love the club first and foremost, and although I still love Poch, I love the club far more. If it's in the club's best interests to let him go, then we have to let him go...and sadly, I think that now it is in the club's best interests to do that.

Great post. That’s how I and I think lots of others feel.
 

spursfan77

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2005
46,685
104,964
Apologies if it been posted already


The Athletic
Jack Pitt-Brooke

‘The place is a regime and they’re sick of him’ – are Pochettino, Levy or the players to blame for Spurs’ crisis?


October has been a nightmare for Tottenham Hotspur and we are only six days in. They conceded 10 goals in two games, tipping a shaky start to the season into something that looks like a crisis. Three wins from 11 all season tells a story, especially when those were home games against Aston Villa, Crystal Palace and Southampton.

Spurs look nothing like themselves right now and Mauricio Pochettino is under more pressure than he has been since his first few months at the club, back in the autumn of 2014. Is this the natural end of the cycle, or has something gone badly wrong? There is plenty of blame to be shared round, but how culpable are the chairman, the manager and the squad?

The players
When the Brighton players reflected on their 3-0 win over Tottenham, one thing stuck in their minds: the silence. They barely heard a word of encouragement or leadership out of the Spurs players, especially after their captain Hugo Lloris was stretchered off after eight minutes.

Mauricio Pochettino is rarely challenged by the dressing room, perhaps to the group’s detriment, but the most worrying thing about Spurs’ recent troubles is the lack of fight and hunger on the pitch.

For years this was a team who gave everything on the pitch, who would press hard, out-run opponents, and push until the final whistle. But not this season. Before this week, the story of this season had been about surrendering leads in the second half: against Olympiakos, Arsenal and Leicester, before the shock exit to Colchester. This week things got worse as Spurs folded in the second half against Bayern and then barely showed up at Brighton. Brighton’s players admitted privately to feeling like they had outworked as well as outplayed Tottenham.

Of course you can always look at individual errors and bad performances to explain events, and there have been plenty of both: Lloris’s mistakes against Southampton and Brighton, Jan Vertonghen looking flat-footed against Arsenal and Olympiakos, Toby Alderweireld exposed by Bayern and Brighton, Serge Aurier’s lack of concentration, Tanguy Ndombele being off the pace, Christian Eriksen losing all consistency. But when almost every individual is underperforming you have to look for a bigger explanation. And it is impossible to avoid the conclusion that there has been a clear collective dip this season.

This team was always sustained by the commitment levels of the players, eager to put the Pochettino plan into action right down to the last detail. But when that commitment slackens, the whole structure falls apart. Pochettino said recently that the main thing he wanted to fix in the team was that they should “recover this aggressivity” without the ball.

They have not won an away league game since January 20, the worst record in the division, and their performances since then both home and away have largely lacked the intensity and slickness that were hallmarks as recently as 18 months ago. They have picked up as many Premier League points in 2019 as West Ham and Burnley, and fewer than Crystal Palace and Leicester. Their tally of 22 points from 20 Premier League matches since mid-February is borderline relegation form.

Clearly some players do not want to be there any more. Eriksen had his heart set on a move to Real Madrid. Toby Alderweireld wanted out last year. Danny Rose has nearly left three summers in a row. Jan Vertonghen is in his final year. Ever since Kyle Walker left for Manchester City in 2017, the squad has been aware of the possibility of more money and more trophies if they left the club. Some might blame players for thinking of their careers but it is only natural.

But there is a broader issue than just players thinking about their next move. And that is a pervasive sense of tiredness, mental and physical, within the squad after five draining years. Most of these players — Lloris, Vertonghen, Alderweireld, Rose, Ben Davies, Lamela, Eric Dier, Eriksen, Kane, Dele Alli, Heung Min Son — have been here since Pochettino’s first or second season. And there is a common feeling that they have very little left to give.

Part of this is physical, after years of hard-running football and double sessions. One long-serving player has complained about the “same old sessions and messages”. But it is also mental, after five years of authoritative controlling management and a relentless schedule, with players also complaining at how few days they are given off. “The place is a regime and they’re sick of him,” one dressing room source said. “It’s his way or nothing, there is no balance. The players don’t get the impression they are trusted at all.”

Pochettino has not lost the dressing room, and the players know what a debt they owe to him. But they just cannot keep playing like they used to. “The players are not revolting against him,” said a source, “but they have been driven so hard, they don’t know if they have got anything left to give.”

The chairman
Can you blame the man who has delivered everything he promised?
Remember that Daniel Levy’s ultimate responsibility is bigger even than trophies, results, and the fact that the team conceded seven goals to Bayern Munich on Tuesday night. His job is to safeguard the long-term stability of the club. And that means taking care of more important things than just the up-and-down results of the team.

The priority over the past decade has been the club’s infrastructure and Levy has secured it for a lifetime. In 2012 Spurs opened their new £50 million training ground, and six months ago, they opened their £1.2 billion new stadium. Each of those is rated the best in Europe. Last season, before the stadium opened, they made a record profit of £113 million. Whatever happens next with Pochettino, the players, even the ownership of the club, it will have a guaranteed level of stability and success because of these.

What makes this even more impressive is that Tottenham built this ground without benefactor investment. They had to borrow £637 million to pay for it but more than £500 million of that has been refinanced through Bank of America at low interest rates, securing the club’s stable financial future. The delays in opening the stadium — it was meant to open at the start of last season, not the end — are forgotten already.

“I understand, as I am a fan, clearly you want to win on the pitch,” Levy told the Financial Times last month. “But we have been trying to look at this slightly differently, in that we want to make sure we ensure an infrastructure here to stand the test of time.”

But has it come at the cost of the team?

Levy has always run a tight ship in terms of contracts and salaries, trying to regularly re-negotiate deals with incremental wage increases to preserve his negotiating power. And for years it worked well.

The problem came when the successes of the team outstripped the money they were offered. After a round of renegotiations in 2016, players were disappointed that finishing second in 2016-17 did not lead to another big round of pay-rises.

One source described Levy as “the Mike Ashley of the top of the league”, a chairman determined to get by spending as little as possible. When the squad learnt last year of Levy’s annual £6 million salary, it went down badly with players who have always felt underpaid.

Since then Levy has started to push the boat out on wages, with Kane, Alli and Lamela all signing big new long-term contracts last year, beyond the old restrictions. Kane’s, for example, increased from about £120,000 to a deal that starts at about £150,000 a week and could grow to £200,000. The flip side is that Levy has secured Tottenham’s control over their futures.

Spurs still spend only 38 per cent of their turnover on wages but the club have said they expect that ratio to increase towards 50 per cent. What Levy will not do is turn Spurs into Manchester United, throwing big long-term contracts at senior players just to keep them at the club.

Even on transfers the club has started to spend again after failing to sign anyone through 2018-19, with a £120 million net spend this summer that few would have expected, finally giving Pochettino new players to work with.

The problem is that Spurs had needed a major clear out of senior players, and a new generation of youngsters long before 2019. And that never happened.

You can argue that Levy should have done all this two years ago, to build on their 86-point season, and secure their best players long-term. But if you were expecting Levy to break his principles to gamble for success, you were looking in the wrong place.

The manager
Mauricio Pochettino knew that his sixth season would be difficult. He knew how hard it would be to keep motivating the same players he has had here for years, to keep getting the same level of physical and mental application they gave him when they were younger.

No one is more conscious of the threat of staleness than Pochettino himself. He has been desperate to end this old cycle here and start a new one. That is why he wanted to start moving on senior players years ago, and advocated a clear-out back in the summer of 2018.

Rose, Alderweireld, Wanyama and Sissoko all could have gone, just as Eriksen and Aurier could have gone this year. But only Kieran Trippier and Fernando Llorente ended up leaving.

Now Pochettino is left having to try to get more out of largely the same set of players he has been working with for years, some of whom he wanted sold, some of who are considering their next move. Pochettino also knows that during the course of his Spurs tenure, Liverpool and Manchester City have almost built new teams from scratch. And because they could never get rid of players, they struggled, at least until this summer, to get players in.

This means Pochettino is left with a squad that lacks the youthful vigour it had three or four years ago. It is not Pochettino’s fault that they do not have a peak-level Mousa Dembele, Kyle Walker, Rose or Wanyama any more, and they cannot easily replace them in the transfer market. The state of the squad is what Pochettino would call a “circumstance” outside his control.

So Spurs cannot play like they did when they would drive teams off the pitch with their energy. The style has changed in the past year or so, slightly deeper, slower and less about pressing. And that more adaptable style helped the team to get to the Champions League, a masterclass in flexible management, and an achievement Pochettino is not averse to mentioning.

This season Spurs still have to be pragmatic. That is why there is a focus on recovery between games, to keep the players functioning at a high level for as long as possible. They know these players cannot run now like they did in 2016.

The coaching staff try to keep changing their sessions and plans to keep the players on their toes, although some players are still finding it hard to stay mentally engaged.

Of course you can criticise specific selection or tactical decisions. Like the persistence with the 4-4-2 diamond system, which leaves Spurs exposed out wide. Even Moussa Sissoko admitted this week the team got tired quicker when they play that way.

You can ask whether Pochettino was right to start Christian Eriksen against Arsenal or Olympiakos, or bench him against Leicester or Bayern.

But the whole picture is far bigger than that, bigger than any individual decision or moment or game. And most of the problems Spurs are facing are outside of Pochettino’s control and beyond his capacity to fix.

Perhaps the strongest criticism of Pochettino concerns the mood. He has always been hot and cold, up and down, but increasingly so in recent months. After losing the Champions League final he was so upset that he went straight to his home in Barcelona, rather than flying back to London with the squad, raising eyebrows behind the scenes.

His comments about “different agendas” in the squad did not go down well with the players either, nor did the speculation in the past linking him with Manchester United or Real Madrid. Some players hoped that Pochettino’s latest contract, in May 2018, would guarantee spending on transfers and player contracts that never happened.

Trying to change the atmosphere might be the best thing Pochettino could do. This downturn is not personally his fault. It is what happens when a group of players overachieve for so long until their motivation fades, with reinforcements arriving too little, too late. But if results continue to get worse, then the pressure will all be on him.

I can’t work out if he’s trying to say we should ride this shit out or move the manager on. A good article but he leaves it hanging too much for me. He likes Poch a lot though so seems to be blaming it on levy rather than the manager.
 

dontcallme

SC Supporter
Mar 18, 2005
34,350
83,657
I can’t work out if he’s trying to say we should ride this shit out or move the manager on. A good article but he leaves it hanging too much for me. He likes Poch a lot though so seems to be blaming it on levy rather than the manager.
On one hand I like that they don't pretend to know the answers. The article simply gives good angles and info to back it up.

But then there is a case of them fence sitting.
 

VancouverSpur

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2010
1,387
4,093
If its a game of who will blink first, either Woodward or Levy there is only one winner. Convinced Levy does not want to sack Poch and would not do so until it's too late. Now if Utd come in for him that's a very different proposition.
 

rossdapep

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2011
22,203
79,877
The biggest issue for me right now is that in order for us to see the best of a Poch team he needs a group of youthful players who can press relentlessly and intensely.

I'm sorry but its just not sustainable. It will always have its peak but will quickly deteriorate as we've seen. And it will need a continuous shuffling of players as they are continuously flagged.

It's why Klopp has adapted his set up. He found out it's limitations, once at Dortmund and then at Liverpool. Klopps teams used to pick up a lot of injuries but now barely any.

But there are other ways to having a successful team. You could get a tactician expert in who knows how to adapt.
 

glacierSpurs

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2013
16,163
25,473
This morning, looking out for news of Poch sacked.

Tomorrow morning, looking out for news of Ole sacked.

I'll welcome either one of the news. Stars are meant to align for us if both news came together.
 

Coyboy

The Double of 1961 is still The Double
Dec 3, 2004
15,506
5,032
I can’t work out if he’s trying to say we should ride this shit out or move the manager on. A good article but he leaves it hanging too much for me. He likes Poch a lot though so seems to be blaming it on levy rather than the manager.

I don't have a problem with fence sitting; no one here knows the full story much less how to run a football team or club. It's a decent article as you say because it's measured and runs true in many ways without being hysterical.

Spurs have been run differently from other clubs since Poch came in because we had to be. If Levy is happy for at worst this to be a painful transition season as Lo Celso, Sess et al (and other youngsters and new players signed) bed in and we lose others for nothing then I am prepared to endure some pain and possibly missing out on the CL.

It's really a question of whether Poch wants to stay (which I believe that he does) and whether Kane and Son (who are our two most important players) are with Poch. Based on pure gut, I reckon the latter is, not sure on the former.
 

leray

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2013
631
2,077
I think United will go for Allegri if they sack Ole.

If Allegri is learning English and doesn't hide that he's here to take over United, then if they want him too, that's basically a done deal.

Steadying that ship and bringing them silverware is the Golden Grail for any football manager.


But... that's the club that thought appointing OGS for the long term, buying Fred for gazillion money and letting Herrera go on a free was a good idea. They will do something stupid, probably.
 

Erm33

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2019
3,986
7,641
It would definitely help the situation if united were recruiting in the next two weeks. I personally feel the main thing holding levy back right now is how much it'll cost him to get rid of Poch. So any situation where he will get out of this with no cost or even profit from it would be his ideal situation
 

ultimateloner

Well-Known Member
Jan 25, 2004
4,577
2,216
The Athletic article summarized it well: well-intentioned players feeling burn-out because of Poch's system; the price you pay for over-achieving with limited resources. Sounds like Poch is suffering what Mourinho suffered before him.
 

TottTommy

Active Member
Jun 29, 2019
126
248
I think we have lost something like seventeen games this year.

We as fans have to take the emotion of a CL final out of the equation, (and the last season at the old stadium}, and look at the facts. Three of the previous six Spurs managers have been let go with better records compared with the last half season.

Simply put i believe that Poch is still here based on one result, the CL semi final.

I don't want to see him go, but Levy has pulled the trigger for less.
 

Primativ

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2017
3,229
12,486
I think we have lost something like seventeen games this year.

We as fans have to take the emotion of a CL final out of the equation, (and the last season at the old stadium}, and look at the facts. Three of the previous six Spurs managers have been let go with better records compared with the last half season.

Simply put i believe that Poch is still here based on one result, the CL semi final.

I don't want to see him go, but Levy has pulled the trigger for less.

I think Levy is smarter than to not be able to look passed the CL run. He will be well aware of the way we limped into fourth, but he will have let Poch off the bad run from January as Poch will have just blamed tiredness and the stadium move etc

But this season we’ve got even worse and Levy won’t be able to ignore that and Poch will have run out of excuses.

I don’t think professionally their relationship is as strong as it used to be. Modern managers don’t last much longer than 3 years now. Levy won’t hesitate if this form continues. It may already be too late. I just feel Levy will give Poch a few more games to turn it around which is unfortunate for us as it will damage us further and cost us more points. The longer levy leaves it the more it will cost us.
 

Everlasting Seconds

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2014
14,914
26,616
#e
If you've watched football for any length of time, you can often spot when a manager's time is up. Sadly, I'm seeing that with Poch. I was so proud to have him as our manager, the way he spoke, the way the team played, everything. I had hoped he would be here for a couple of decades at least, and lead us to years of glory...and for a while it looked like that might be something that was going to happen.

Something changed a while back, though. The way Poch spoke started to change. The team stopped playing fantastic football. Results started to go against us. I was thrilled to make the CL final, we all were. But we could also all see that something was wrong. Results don't lie over a long period, and for the last year our league form has been absolutely terrible. It's become quite obvious that Poch either doesn't know how to sort it, or is not able to sort it if he does know how.

Poch isn't the man to take us forward, and that's the truth of it, like it or not...and I for one really don't like it. But it is what it is...he's not going to be able to turn it around, and keeping him is only delaying the inevitable. If we want to keep moving forward as a club we need to make the hard decisions, and getting rid of Poch is probably one of the hardest decisions the club will have had to take since ENIC took over. Credit in the bank? Not in top level football. Start going backwards and it's game over.

Do I want Poch gone? Hell no. I want the old Poch back, the one who was a gentleman, the one who put together a team that played quality, exciting football and won games. I don't want the new Poch, the sulky one, the bitter one, the ridiculously stubborn one, the one who talks complete bollocks and hasn't got a clue how to set the team up. He has always had limitations tactically, and his in-game management has never been very good, but what he did have covered, in the main, what he lacked. That is no longer the case.

Whatever is wrong with the team is down to Poch. Whether it's the training, the motivating...whatever it is. Poch is the manager and it's his job to sort it. If he can't do his job properly he shouldn't be in it. Which leads back to the opening line of this post: sometimes a manager's time is up, and you just have to accept it, whether you like it or not. Poch's time is up. I hate it, but it's how it is.

I support Spurs. Always. I've loved players and managers, some of them I will love for ever...but I love the club first and foremost, and although I still love Poch, I love the club far more. If it's in the club's best interests to let him go, then we have to let him go...and sadly, I think that now it is in the club's best interests to do that.
#endofthread
#enoughsaid
 

yido_number1

He'll always be magic
Jun 8, 2004
8,692
16,895
He hasn't become a shit manager, it's his situation at the club that has.
I'm sure he'll do well in his next job, just like Klopp did.
Both Spurs and Poch need this change

People like you will moan when a player comes out saying they want to leave and yet the first sign of trouble you want to sack a manager that has completely transformed us from trying to get into the top 4 to trying to win the league. Why don't we bring in Pardew to replace him so some of the fans can get what they deserve?
 

rez9000

Any point?
Feb 8, 2007
11,942
21,098
So after that gut-wrenching result at the weekend, there's no been a major shift in opinion. Of 815 votes cast, 62.5% of SC voters want Pochettino to remain in post, and 37.5% want him to vacate the manager's role.

The margin has dropped a little from 26.2% to 25%
 

rabbikeane

Well-Known Member
Mar 29, 2005
6,951
12,788
So after that gut-wrenching result at the weekend, there's no been a major shift in opinion. Of 815 votes cast, 62.5% of SC voters want Pochettino to remain in post, and 37.5% want him to vacate the manager's role.

The margin has dropped a little from 26.2% to 25%

I asume most votes had already been cast and that very few will bother to change it in the poll.
 
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