Poch: In or Out? - You CAN change your vote

Should Poch stay or go?

  • Stay

    Votes: 657 55.3%
  • Go

    Votes: 532 44.7%

  • Total voters
    1,189
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Japhet

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I also don't want to start again from scratch. You can bet your last £ Levy won't be keen to release the purse strings straight off with a new man in charge, and that will have another long term effect on our progress.
 

mrlilywhite

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After having slept on it and gotten over the sheer embarrassment, here's where I stand:
  1. The Diamond is our biggest problem. It leaves the CBs and the flanks completely exposed, leaves us narrow in attack, and requires the players to cover so much ground that they're exhausting themselves quickly into matches. We used to be compact, solid, and visibly more fit than our opponents week in, week out. No we're wide open and the players are dead on their feet. It's the formation, and that's on Poch.
  2. The squad is a legitimate problem. Dier is the only player who can even potentially provide what we're missing in midfield, and if we're honest with ourselves he hasn't been even close to his best form since 2017. Even if he were to recapture his best form, he doesn't possess the mobility, ball skills, and quick passing to cover the ground necessary, resist the press, and keep play ticking over the way modern No. 6s are asked to do. The right back situation speaks for itself. We've left ourselves short in key areas, yet again.
  3. There's clearly something wrong in the camp. For me it's a combination of issues one and two. The players being asked to do an impossible task can't be helping matters, and the fact that there are blatantly a number of players who should have been shifted and replaced (Wanyama, Rose, and Aurier not to mention the contract rebels) who Levy didn't manage to get rid of means that there are a lot of senior players who aren't fully committed.
Poch can't do anything about the squad until January but he does have some agency over the issues underlying the formation and the lack of togetherness. He's got to make changes, and soon, or else he'll rightly be sacked. It appears he's been given a stay of execution, and I'm fine with that given all the goodwill he's earned, but he needs to make massive changes.
  1. The Diamond isn't the main problem - people need to get over the fallacy of formations being the root cause of everything bad that is happening. A formation doesn't make you inherently play better or worse. It is the system that plays within the formation that is the problem. You touch on the fact that we used to be much fitter, ask yourself why we are not now and then look at the first 30 mins of last nights game to get to a conclusion. Poch's biggest weapon in his Arsenal has completely evaded him and that is the Counter press.
  2. I agree the biggest problem is the squad. we are no longer that vibrant young team anymore who could press so well in Poch's system - Poch's system is bloody tough on fitness and arguably one of the toughest physically to play in, coupled with that the intensity of training that Poch demands and its plain to see in black and white imo.
  3. Once again - the downward spiral starts with the system, Poch can't get the players to work in it anymore, the players are harder to motivate because of it and Poch doesn't have a system viable enough to get the best out of the players and it all becomes an ever decreasing circle, that eventually ends up to where we are now.
So what can Poch do? Honestly, the only thing he can do is move away from the press and look at other ways to fire up the team and I have major reservations that he could do that.
 

GarlicBread

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For me, I vote stay. Like others have said, let’s wait for Lo Celso and Sess to come back, and see if an utter hammering will give him a wake up call to use a DM and stop pissing about with the formation.
 

Khilari

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1. His tools are actually great. The very best 11 players at the clubs is a really strong line up.
2. Why are they not fully committed and what is Pochettino's part in their lack of commitment?
3. After five years, whether a new signing arrives in May or August shouldn't be the make it or break it for the entire squad's capability.
4. We had three senior RBs
5. The best players when match fit are good enough to not go 2-7 down vs. Bayern at home regardless of whether a couple of new signings are injured.
6. Loyalty is not enough. This isn't a coffee bar with one free turn after 10 times of paying your dews.
7. The possible options for new manager are interesting enough that I consider it the very least of our worries.
1. That's entirely subjective. Wanywama was great. Eriksen was great. Even Lamela had a great start to a season previously. Rose was great. Dier has previously been great. Dembele was great.
2. I accept the point - that Pochettino may have a part to play in this. However, I expect players being paid by the football club to be fully committed to playing for Spurs and that doesn't excuse a player's lack of commitment.
3. Shouldn't, but we start slow and our new signings can't play their part.
4. KWP appeared in 6 EPL games last year, so I wouldn't have called him a senior RB particularly when Foyth was preferred to him towards the end of the season. Aurier was looking to move away and we were willing to listen to offers for him and are using him because he ended up staying. Not good enough!
5. Yes, we capitulated. There's no defence for this and Pochettino ultimately carries the responsibility. But the players should too.
6. Loyalty is important to me - Pochettino would undoubtedly have won things had he left Spurs for a club with a bigger chequebook and yet he is so desperate to win something with Spurs he stays on.
7. Who are the options?
 

Khilari

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I think he didn't take the Real Madrid job because it has no job security, a few bad results and he would get fired, look at Madrid's track record with managers, they have zero patience. Also, Poch earns an absolute fortune at Spurs, maybe Poch knows that Madrid wouldn't better his current contract especially if he knows they might sack him quickly if things didn't go the way they want.
Perhaps. Only Pochettino knows. But ultimately most people involved in competitive sport are there to win things, whether it be a Carabao Cup, FA Cup or Spanish Cup. He's much more likely to win something in Spain at a club like Real Madrid.
 

Khilari

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Dybala was just an opportune moment that presented itself and I for one can understand exactly why that didn't happen. Poch went a season without buying anyone because he said that there were no players they could get that would strengthen the team.
But I don't think he simply said "I don't want any players" and that's why we didn't sign any, which is what your post seems to insinuate.

I suspect he had a restricted transfer budget and the only players available for him to sign were no better than the players he already had at the club, so didn't sign anyone.
 

Ronwol196061

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I'm a stay if or a go if...


...If he can evolve
If he can make sensible selections
If he can inspire the troops

Up to now the positive pressure has turned negative

...if he can turn that around

Sorry can it go to penalties?
 

DSpurs

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132
I waited until things had settled before voting for Poch to stay. I can see the decline has been over a long period and part of me wants to see someone new come in. But, things have come to a head now. Before it was (potentially forward thinking) relatively few people in the Poch out camp (I don't know the numbers but I suggest the most vocal / adamant were in the minority). Now it's a much more public issue and the pressure is on him to change something.

As I/we don't know the full extend of the problems I would rather now give him the opportunity, under full and proper scrutiny, to see if he can change it. If he goes before that we'll never know if he could have changed things. Furthermore, I appreciate the comments others have made that a new manager may sort things, may provide a quick fix and/or may see us in yet another project or period of transition. That's not perfect either part way through a season.

I guess it's not 'quite' rock bottom yet, so I'd like to wait a bit (which is probably a long-winded way of saying I'm undecided).
 

Khilari

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I think your loyalty to Poch is blinding ignorance tbh. I think it is as plain as day that the majority, not all of the problems lie at the feet of Poch and I could go on and state the reason(s), but I have written enough about it over the two threads to make it obvious enough. I will, however, tell you how it ends in one or two scenarios - Either Poch abandons his system and finds something that works in the interim until he has time to sort out the squad to play his preferred system (unlikely, as the dressing room seems to be gone now), or Poch gets the sack. It really is as simple as that right now. He has no more than a couple of games to turn things around imho.
He has no more than a couple of games to turn things around after 7 Premier League games and 2 group stage CL games? Wow. Harsh critic.
 

Khilari

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I think even though we held our own in the 1st half and should have went in ahead at half time, we really needed to get Winks out of there and put Dier in to give us a bit more defensively.
The problem has been Poch seems unable to react quick enough to things that are staring him and everyone else in the face.
I don't believe we should be playing the diamond again and also think Winks needs taken out along with Sissoko we need a bit more bite in midfield and get back to our pressing game that made us so hard to beat for a few years.
At 4-2 we weren't playing badly. He had already made 3 substitutions to try and somehow salvage a draw. They then scored 3 goals in the last 7 minutes. What was he supposed to do? I don't think anyone saw our total capitulation in those last 10min coming.
 

Khilari

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I actually can’t believe 55% of people want him to stay.

I love a bit of deluded, misplaced and baseless optimism but fuck me.

Our last three league finishes have been 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

This season, I imagine 5th or below as things stand.

He had a two year honeymoon period when he joined the club and the steady decline has been happening ever since, with the last 12 months being complete and utter dross.

Any notion that he’s the man to turn this around is a delusion you’ve come up with yourself because there is zero evidence to back it.
Most of what you say is true and I agree with, but it lacks context.
Our last three league finishes prior to Pochettino were: 4th, 5th, 6th having made the "top 4" only twice in 21 Premier League seasons.
This season with the state of Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea's transfer ban, I still think we are in with a shout of making 3rd or 4th.
His first season was no honeymoon - it was tough.
He revolutionised the way we play, our youth policy and has worked on a shoestring budget.
We only think 5th would be shit because of the incredibly high standards Pochettino has set the club.
The last 12 months of utter dross football should be framed under "no signings for >500 days".
 

Spurs' Pipe Dreams

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Question for my fellow Poch-inners

If Poch decided to say fuck it, he's going to write this season off in order to prepare for the next one and that means the likes of Aurier, Alder, Vert, Rose being dropped for the likes of KWP, Sanchez, Foyth, Sessegnon in order to develop them. Would you be happy? Obviously I can't imagine all 4 are causing big enough problems but if he decided to drop 2-3 of these from now on to focus on the development of the players he plans on being him next season at the expense of this season would you stick it out until the end or would it be the straw that broke the camels back?

I ask as I don't know how I'd feel about it.
Depends on where we finish & the football we play, I think we'd still be pushing top 4 with those, as I don't see the massive drop in quality, plus I'd probably play Dier instead of Foyth or go back 5.

I think Poch has to be ruthless with them, if they don't buy into "the project" and can't commit to the club then adios. It's sad but I think what needs to happen
 

Khilari

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  1. The Diamond isn't the main problem - people need to get over the fallacy of formations being the root cause of everything bad that is happening. A formation doesn't make you inherently play better or worse. It is the system that plays within the formation that is the problem. You touch on the fact that we used to be much fitter, ask yourself why we are not now and then look at the first 30 mins of last nights game to get to a conclusion. Poch's biggest weapon in his Arsenal has completely evaded him and that is the Counter press.
  2. I agree the biggest problem is the squad. we are no longer that vibrant young team anymore who could press so well in Poch's system - Poch's system is bloody tough on fitness and arguably one of the toughest physically to play in, coupled with that the intensity of training that Poch demands and its plain to see in black and white imo.
  3. Once again - the downward spiral starts with the system, Poch can't get the players to work in it anymore, the players are harder to motivate because of it and Poch doesn't have a system viable enough to get the best out of the players and it all becomes an ever decreasing circle, that eventually ends up to where we are now.
So what can Poch do? Honestly, the only thing he can do is move away from the press and look at other ways to fire up the team and I have major reservations that he could do that.
Agree with most of this - great post, thanks.

Just wanted to add that when a squad gets stale, the manager is usually able to shake things up by adding players. Existing players can either then raise their game and improve or get left behind and sold. Our squad has done anything but evolve and features just one new signing.
 

DJS

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Is there a shake it all about option?

(Sorry if already done but couldn’t be arsed to thread through whole thread).
 

nedley

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In.

But he hasn't got much time to turn this around. I said a few weeks back I'd like to see him given until Watford.

Need to see a minimum of 4 points from the next two games.

I do fear if we lose at Brighton we may well see a mutual termination of his contract.

Need a convincing win with quality on Sat.
 

wrd

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  1. The Diamond isn't the main problem - people need to get over the fallacy of formations being the root cause of everything bad that is happening. A formation doesn't make you inherently play better or worse. It is the system that plays within the formation that is the problem. You touch on the fact that we used to be much fitter, ask yourself why we are not now and then look at the first 30 mins of last nights game to get to a conclusion. Poch's biggest weapon in his Arsenal has completely evaded him and that is the Counter press.
  2. I agree the biggest problem is the squad. we are no longer that vibrant young team anymore who could press so well in Poch's system - Poch's system is bloody tough on fitness and arguably one of the toughest physically to play in, coupled with that the intensity of training that Poch demands and its plain to see in black and white imo.
  3. Once again - the downward spiral starts with the system, Poch can't get the players to work in it anymore, the players are harder to motivate because of it and Poch doesn't have a system viable enough to get the best out of the players and it all becomes an ever decreasing circle, that eventually ends up to where we are now.
So what can Poch do? Honestly, the only thing he can do is move away from the press and look at other ways to fire up the team and I have major reservations that he could do that.
A formation plays a large part in performance, I think you're dismissing it way too easily, look at Chelsea under Conte, they were shocking got tanked 3-0 by Arsenal, switched to 3-4-3 and went and broke the prem record for wins in a row. A system is important, maybe it doesn't matter in terms of the rigidness of setting up in a particular position but a system answers certain questions
- Does the team have width or not
- If it does have width where does it come from, is it from the fullbacks or wingers
- If it's the fullbacks what is approach to covering the space they leave behind
- Do you have a midfielder who allows the central defenders to split and cover space or do they need to stay central
- What is the role of the midfielders out of possesion, do they help with fullbacks or are they covering the edge of the box

You talk about the fitness, you talk about the pressing, well The diamond literally impacts those things in a negative way, our midfielders were being dragged from one side to the next because Bayern were excellent at switching the play, now we could have approached the system in a way where we had two wingers covering those positions. We had space behind because our fullbacks were exhausted from trying to provide the width, again we could have conserved their energy by not asking so much of them. How can we press when we're being dragged from one side to the other.
 

spursfan77

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Probably not to the extent he's have liked, but who is apart from Pep? Definitely to an extent where he's been able to turn down players. Hoddle said earlier in the year that he had money to spend but didn't want to spend it, and then reiterated 3 times 'for a fact'. That was then backed up by various ITK, yet we still have half of SC putting their fingers in their ears and going lalalala.

Add to the fact that our chairman probably thought it was best to build a stadium for long term planning rather than spunk another 20-30 million on players Poch doesn't like and wouldn't even play. I'd have done the same.

At this rate, forget about players who are out of contract, worry about the players who do have contracts, like Kane, Alli etc., if this continues you'll have even more reasons to worry about filling the squad when they decide we're not good enough anymore and move on. Then not only will we have to find new players for Toby, Verts etc., but also the rest of the team who've just had enough of Poch. See Trix ITK.

I honestly believe he IS just a motivator and we've had the best squad in his term for years. As others have said, this team would have won the league under Klopp.
Please don’t. Reminds me of this!

 

wrd

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A formation plays a large part in performance, I think you're dismissing it way too easily, look at Chelsea under Conte, they were shocking got tanked 3-0 by Arsenal, switched to 3-4-3 and went and broke the prem record for wins in a row. A system is important, maybe it doesn't matter in terms of the rigidness of setting up in a particular position but a system answers certain questions
- Does the team have width or not
- If it does have width where does it come from, is it from the fullbacks or wingers
- If it's the fullbacks what is approach to covering the space they leave behind
- Do you have a midfielder who allows the central defenders to split and cover space or do they need to stay central
- What is the role of the midfielders out of possesion, do they help with fullbacks or are they covering the edge of the box

You talk about the fitness, you talk about the pressing, well The diamond literally impacts those things in a negative way, our midfielders were being dragged from one side to the next because Bayern were excellent at switching the play, now we could have approached the system in a way where we had two wingers covering those positions. We had space behind because our fullbacks were exhausted from trying to provide the width, again we could have conserved their energy by not asking so much of them. How can we press when we're being dragged from one side to the other.

Spurs midfielder Moussa Sissoko has claimed that playing with a diamond midfield means that the players tire more easily than playing any other system.

Cheers for backing me Moussa
 
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