EL or not EL

[jimbo]

If we finish 7th do we go into the Intertoto Cup?

More importantly, how are we doing in the Fair Play League this year?

 

[DiscoD1882]

Simply yes. The main reason is that unless you are a ticket holder or straight on the website when pl tickets go on sale it is difficult to get tickets to home games. Non members get a chance to go to games. Also champs league spot for winners. More football on telly and a cup. Of which we haven't had many to cheer about over the last 20 years.

 

[mano-obe]

The only flipside now is that you can get into the champions league.

The jokes are that it takes over twenty games to reach the final for a purse that is about the same as the league cup.

Another joke being that if two drop outs from the champions league are in the final the ones who don't qualify outright will lose out.

It's a farcical cup I'd like to win still

 

[nightgoat]

When we qualified for the competition in 2010 we weren't even ranked as we didn't have a a European campaign the previous season, we ended up being 3rd seed and still came out on top by beating the holders.

You make a valid point but you can't think like that IMO, if we qualify for the competition the very least we're guaranteed is €10.7m Euros which is twice as much as you'd get for simply winning the Europe League also we'd have a chance of attracting good players simply for being in the Champions League.

That is true, although of course the coefficient score is made up from five seasons worth, and we had been in the UEFA Cup (as it was back then) for the three seasons prior. In the end we missed out on a place in the second seeding pot by 0.601 but ultimately I think we got a favourable draw. Inter were the holders, but Mourinho had left and they were knocked out in the same round as us. Werder Bremen had just sold Özil and finished 13th in the Bundesliga that season. We could have drawn Real Madrid, Shakhtar Donetsk, Valencia or Roma from that pot, all who would have been tougher opposition than Werder.

Conversely, Man City got a much tougher draw from the third pot in their first season in the CL, and Liverpool will have to cross just about everything as they will almost certainly be in pot four next season. I don't think the attraction to players is as much as it's made out unless we are in it on a regular basis. That season we only signed Sandro (which had been confirmed the previous season), Gallas on a free and Rafa, which was a deal that just happened to be available. Maybe he wouldn't have come to us if we hadn't been in the CL, but there certainly wasn't the sudden influx of star players many had anticipated or expected.

Unless you count Bongani Khumalo.

 

[Shadydan]

That is true, although of course the coefficient score is made up from five seasons worth, and we had been in the UEFA Cup (as it was back then) for the three seasons prior. In the end we missed out on a place in the second seeding pot by 0.601 but ultimately I think we got a favourable draw. Inter were the holders, but Mourinho had left and they were knocked out in the same round as us. Werder Bremen had just sold Özil and finished 13th in the Bundesliga that season. We could have drawn Real Madrid, Shakhtar Donetsk, Valencia or Roma from that pot, all who would have been tougher opposition than Werder.

Conversely, Man City got a much tougher draw from the third pot in their first season in the CL, and Liverpool will have to cross just about everything as they will almost certainly be in pot four next season. I don't think the attraction to players is as much as it's made out unless we are in it on a regular basis. That season we only signed Sandro (which had been confirmed the previous season), Gallas on a free and Rafa, which was a deal that just happened to be available. Maybe he wouldn't have come to us if we hadn't been in the CL, but there certainly wasn't the sudden influx of star players many had anticipated or expected.

Unless you count Bongani Khumalo.

We could have got a more favourable or less favourable draw that season, we could have drawn a Marseille or a Panathanaikos to but we could only beat what was in front of us and to be drawn against the holders that season, despite the managerial change you could hardly call that favourable.

I don't think anyone expected an influx of big names to come through the door, but Champions League attraction helps you in bringing in star names and retain your best players, I very much doubt that Bale or Modric would have gone so hastily if we were participating in the CL for example. We did also attract a certain Van Der Vaart to the club, again a player I doubt would have signed without the club being in the CL.

 

[Original # 10]

Absolutely yes
The sheer arrogance to suggest not is the reason we as Spurs fans have such a collective fickle impression laid upon us

 

[Toela65]

FWIW I read Liverpool will be in pot 3 in an article they reckoned.

That is true, although of course the coefficient score is made up from five seasons worth, and we had been in the UEFA Cup (as it was back then) for the three seasons prior. In the end we missed out on a place in the second seeding pot by 0.601 but ultimately I think we got a favourable draw. Inter were the holders, but Mourinho had left and they were knocked out in the same round as us. Werder Bremen had just sold Özil and finished 13th in the Bundesliga that season. We could have drawn Real Madrid, Shakhtar Donetsk, Valencia or Roma from that pot, all who would have been tougher opposition than Werder.

Conversely, Man City got a much tougher draw from the third pot in their first season in the CL, and Liverpool will have to cross just about everything as they will almost certainly be in pot four next season. I don't think the attraction to players is as much as it's made out unless we are in it on a regular basis. That season we only signed Sandro (which had been confirmed the previous season), Gallas on a free and Rafa, which was a deal that just happened to be available. Maybe he wouldn't have come to us if we hadn't been in the CL, but there certainly wasn't the sudden influx of star players many had anticipated or expected.

Unless you count Bongani Khumalo.

FWIW, I read in an article a few days ago that Liverpool would be in Pot 3 but don't know for certain.

 

[nightgoat]

We could have got a more favourable or less favourable draw that season, we could have drawn a Marseille or a Panathanaikos to but we could only beat what was in front of us and to be drawn against the holders that season, despite the managerial change you could hardly call that favourable.

I don't think anyone expected an influx of big names to come through the door, but Champions League attraction helps you in bringing in star names and retain your best players, I very much doubt that Bale or Modric would have gone so hastily if we were participating in the CL for example. We did also attract a certain Van Der Vaart to the club, again a player I doubt would have signed without the club being in the CL.

Well yes, we didn't get The Hardest Possible Draw and we didn't get The Easiest Possible Draw. But like I said, we could have drawn Real Madrid, Shakhtar, Valencia or Roma from Pot 2, whereas had we been in that pot we would have been up against teams like Rangers, Panathinaikos, Copenhagen. We were one of only three teams from our seeding pot that actually made it out of the group stage whereas five of the teams from Pot 2 qualified, which suggests the overall standard of teams from that pot was higher.

There were plenty of people on here who, once we qualified, set their sights for transfer targets higher than they would have been otherwise. I did mention Van der Vaart, although we signed him because Real were actively trying to sell him on the last day of the transfer window. I don't think you can really quantify that transfer as 'we qualified for the CL, which enabled us to go out and sign Van der Vaart'.

As for Bale, do you think he'd have stayed this season had we qualified again? Modric wanted off straight after our CL season and most likely would have still wanted to leave had we qualified again the season after.

 

[tttcowan]

1882

That's pretty much the only positive I see in the EL... It's a nice one. The rest of it is far to much of slog and has too much of a detrimental effect on our league campaign. Ask a Liverpool fan if they'd of liked to of been in Europa League this year... Defo pass... Unless we just sent the kids and the assistant to manage them.

 

[nightgoat]

FWIW I read Liverpool will be in pot 3 in an article they reckoned.


FWIW, I read in an article a few days ago that Liverpool would be in Pot 3 but don't know for certain.

It depends on who finishes where in each respective league, but I make out (by a not entirely fool proof method) that they'll be on the edge and it will come down to one or two teams qualifying that will determine which pot they're in.

All things considered they're bloody lucky how things are going, what with Monaco taking up one of the automatic group stage places whilst having virtually zero co-efficient, Marseille and Lyon slacking in the French league, Milan out of contention and Inter 11 points off third in Serie A, Lokomotiv Moscow leading the Russian league and occupying a guaranteed spot where Zenit or CSKA would be seeded well ahead of Liverpool, Porto (currently 10th in the rankings) not guaranteed a place yet either.

 

[Shadydan]

Well yes, we didn't get The Hardest Possible Draw and we didn't get The Easiest Possible Draw. But like I said, we could have drawn Real Madrid, Shakhtar, Valencia or Roma from Pot 2, whereas had we been in that pot we would have been up against teams like Rangers, Panathinaikos, Copenhagen. We were one of only three teams from our seeding pot that actually made it out of the group stage whereas five of the teams from Pot 2 qualified, which suggests the overall standard of teams from that pot was higher.

There were plenty of people on here who, once we qualified, set their sights for transfer targets higher than they would have been otherwise. I did mention Van der Vaart, although we signed him because Real were actively trying to sell him on the last day of the transfer window. I don't think you can really quantify that transfer as 'we qualified for the CL, which enabled us to go out and sign Van der Vaart'.

As for Bale, do you think he'd have stayed this season had we qualified again? Modric wanted off straight after our CL season and most likely would have still wanted to leave had we qualified again the season after.

We could have but we didn't. You can say the same about other teams in pot 3 season in season out. My underlying point is though we were actually good enough to qualify for the next phase. We didn't fluke it by any stretch, we didn't look out of place in the competition apart from when we came up against Real (understandably). The pots nowadays don't tell us much anyway, it doesn't tell us the full story and it doesn't separate quality, all it does is separate experience, 6 teams out of 8 from pot 3 made it through to the knockout stage this season, why? Because they were good enough to progress and better than the majority of teams in pot 2...which is incidentally what happened to us 4 years ago.

The point is that would VdV have signed if we were in the Champions League? would we have been able to attract a player of his quality if we weren't participating in the competition, that is what I'm doubting. The type of player VdV is gave the whole club a lift, would we be able to sign a player like that in his prime again...hmm not so sure.

As for Bale and Modric, I'm under no illusions that these two would have left eventually but I think their departures would have been put on hold. Modric wanted to go to Chelsea if you recall because they were playing CL and I think Bale would have been content to stay here, both these players made it clear that they were after CL football when they were with us.

 

[nightgoat]

We could have but we didn't. You can say the same about other teams in pot 3 season in season out. My underlying point is though we were actually good enough to qualify for the next phase. We didn't fluke it by any stretch, we didn't look out of place in the competition apart from when we came up against Real (understandably). The pots nowadays don't tell us much anyway, it doesn't tell us the full story and it doesn't separate quality, all it does is separate experience, 6 teams out of 8 from pot 3 made it through to the knockout stage this season, why? Because they were good enough to progress and better than the majority of teams in pot 2...which is incidentally what happened to us 4 years ago.

The point is that would VdV have signed if we were in the Champions League? would we have been able to attract a player of his quality if we weren't participating in the competition, that is what I'm doubting. The type of player VdV is gave the whole club a lift, would we be able to sign a player like that in his prime again...hmm not so sure.

As for Bale and Modric, I'm under no illusions that these two would have left eventually but I think their departures would have been put on hold. Modric wanted to go to Chelsea if you recall because they were playing CL and I think Bale would have been content to stay here, both these players made it clear that they were after CL football when they were with us.

I didn't suggest we fluked our results at all. My original point was that we would have been more likely to get an easier draw if we were in pot two rather than pot three. As it was, we got a decent draw by avoiding the likes of Bayern, Barcelona, Real etc. Of course there will always be anomalies - Monaco will be one of the lowest ranked teams in next season's CL, Dortmund have had a stronger team than their ranking suggested for a few years now, or Lyon having several seasons of relative success before deteriorating but still having a good ranking - but by and large the teams in the top 15 or so are there because they have had season after season of European football getting to finals, semi finals, quarter finals on a regular basis.

Real Madrid were trying to sell Van der Vaart on the last day of the transfer window, and I vaguely remember there being a case of them having one too many players for their registered squad and he would have been the one to be omitted. I may be wrong on that, but ultimately they didn't want him, and we were the only team in for him. I suspect in that situation he would have still joined us even if we were only in the EL.

Ultimately, as soon as Real come in for one of our players, even if we are in the CL they're likely to want to leave as we can't offer anything like the wages they can, nor can we realistically compete to win it.

 

[Ribble]

Definitely go for it, important to have as many chances as possible to actually win a trophy. Unless there's a huge exodus we have the squad to cope, indeed we have a squad that needs the extra games to keep everyone ticking over nicely.

Also I like the trophy and how it has quite a unique style. Makes the CL trophy look like an urn.

 

[dricha1]

It depends on who finishes where in each respective league, but I make out (by a not entirely fool proof method) that they'll be on the edge and it will come down to one or two teams qualifying that will determine which pot they're in.

All things considered they're bloody lucky how things are going, what with Monaco taking up one of the automatic group stage places whilst having virtually zero co-efficient, Marseille and Lyon slacking in the French league, Milan out of contention and Inter 11 points off third in Serie A, Lokomotiv Moscow leading the Russian league and occupying a guaranteed spot where Zenit or CSKA would be seeded well ahead of Liverpool, Porto (currently 10th in the rankings) not guaranteed a place yet either.

Would be absolutely awful if Liverpool finished 4th and United somehow won the CL. Awful..

 

[SlunkSoma]

Definitely want to qualify, but would like to see a squad of second string/youth playing the matches. It's evidently wrecked our league season, which has in turn affected the way we approach EL, so going whole hog isn't smart. Going out in the group, or last 32/16 makes no difference really. Eager to see some of our youngsters given a first team birth, EL is perfect for it.

 

[Shadydan]

I didn't suggest we fluked our results at all. My original point was that we would have been more likely to get an easier draw if we were in pot two rather than pot three. As it was, we got a decent draw by avoiding the likes of Bayern, Barcelona, Real etc. Of course there will always be anomalies - Monaco will be one of the lowest ranked teams in next season's CL, Dortmund have had a stronger team than their ranking suggested for a few years now, or Lyon having several seasons of relative success before deteriorating but still having a good ranking - but by and large the teams in the top 15 or so are there because they have had season after season of European football getting to finals, semi finals, quarter finals on a regular basis.

Real Madrid were trying to sell Van der Vaart on the last day of the transfer window, and I vaguely remember there being a case of them having one too many players for their registered squad and he would have been the one to be omitted. I may be wrong on that, but ultimately they didn't want him, and we were the only team in for him. I suspect in that situation he would have still joined us even if we were only in the EL.

Ultimately, as soon as Real come in for one of our players, even if we are in the CL they're likely to want to leave as we can't offer anything like the wages they can, nor can we realistically compete to win it.

5 teams (not 6, apologies) out of 8 teams isn't an anomaly, if you actually break it down you'd see that a lot of teams in pot 3 are actually better in pot 2 hence why they progressed over them. This backs up my point about pots not meaning much anymore as there is no clear distinction in quality between pots 2 and 3, as you would say there was between pots 1 and 2.

So I know we've kind of deviated from the point a bit but do we really need a Europa League run which is at a detriment of our domestic form in order to boost our chances of qualification into the next round? We've seen first hand the effect of the Europa League has on our players, is it really worth risking domestic form in the hope of attaining some points for a competition we may not even be in the following season. I'd rather qualify for it first and then look at our options and opponents rather than prepare for something which may not happen.

I vaguely remember that Bayern were in for Van Der Vaart as well, I still don't think that we would have enticed him without Champions League football, also can't agree on the whole Modric or Bale thing but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[nightgoat]

5 teams (not 6, apologies) out of 8 teams isn't an anomaly, if you actually break it down you'd see that a lot of teams in pot 3 are actually better in pot 2 hence why they progressed over them. This backs up my point about pots not meaning much anymore as there is no clear distinction in quality between pots 2 and 3, as you would say there was between pots 1 and 2.

So I know we've kind of deviated from the point a bit but do we really need a Europa League run which is at a detriment of our domestic form in order to boost our chances of qualification into the next round? We've seen first hand the effect of the Europa League has on our players, is it really worth risking domestic form in the hope of attaining some points for a competition we may not even be in the following season. I'd rather qualify for it first and then look at our options and opponents rather than prepare for something which may not happen.

I vaguely remember that Bayern were in for Van Der Vaart as well, I still don't think that we would have enticed him without Champions League football, also can't agree on the whole Modric or Bale thing but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

No, you were right, it was six (Zenit, Man City, Dortmund, Olympiacos, Galatasaray and Leverkusen). But you could argue that, not taking into account things like the Benfica v Olympiacos game being played on a lake which helped Olympiacos qualify ahead of Benfica, there were more qualifiers from pot three because the teams from that pot this season were generally stronger than previous years, as their higher coefficient scores suggest. The previous three seasons only three teams made it out of pot three. If you look at it from the perspective of teams you'd want to avoid, there were more in pot two than pot three this season.

I think we can adequately cope with a decent EL run as we have the squad to be able to play an almost entirely different starting XI whilst still being good enough to comfortably beat the sorts of teams in the group stage, which in turn shouldn't affect domestic form if most of those playing the next league game either didn't play or travel in midweek. But then I'd like to see us try and win it for the point of trying to win a trophy, not just to rack up some ranking points.

The Bayern link was from Harry gabbing to the press about how Bayern had supposedly been offered Rafa the day before for £18m. Real said it was bollocks, but then who believes what they say anyway? Either way, Bayern didn't go for him for whatever reason and we signed him pretty much unopposed.

 

[Shadydan]

No, you were right, it was six (Zenit, Man City, Dortmund, Olympiacos, Galatasaray and Leverkusen). But you could argue that, not taking into account things like the Benfica v Olympiacos game being played on a lake which helped Olympiacos qualify ahead of Benfica, there were more qualifiers from pot three because the teams from that pot this season were generally stronger than previous years, as their higher coefficient scores suggest. The previous three seasons only three teams made it out of pot three. If you look at it from the perspective of teams you'd want to avoid, there were more in pot two than pot three this season.

I think we can adequately cope with a decent EL run as we have the squad to be able to play an almost entirely different starting XI whilst still being good enough to comfortably beat the sorts of teams in the group stage, which in turn shouldn't affect domestic form if most of those playing the next league game either didn't play or travel in midweek. But then I'd like to see us try and win it for the point of trying to win a trophy, not just to rack up some ranking points.

The Bayern link was from Harry gabbing to the press about how Bayern had supposedly been offered Rafa the day before for £18m. Real said it was bollocks, but then who believes what they say anyway? Either way, Bayern didn't go for him for whatever reason and we signed him pretty much unopposed.

To be fair, that (Olympiakos/Benfica game) was one game so we can't use that as an excuse, Benfica had 5 other matches to play in that group they had every chance to build up their points over Olympiakos, also you're doing a dis-service to them as they've proved that they're a capable team. The main underlying point I'm making is that there isn't much between pot 2/3 as in evidence from the last few seasons. Even some of the teams in pot 4 have proved that they're not just fodder.

I agree in essence that we should play a weakened team in the group stages (although I'm sure we tried that and it didn't work ) and then reassess after xmas, although I'd still maintain that it would affect domestic form especially at such a crucial stage of the season. The problem we face and this is something that is continually overlooked is that the Europa League is a very difficult competition to win mainly because there are other teams better equipped to win it. Other teams who know how to win and are experienced in lifting trophies season in season out and are just better than us at doing it, so whilst we sit here and dream and say things like it offers a chance to obtain silverware and it's a competition we should be winning no-one ever takes into account that it's a very difficult task which coincides with a push for our domestic goal.

 

[nightgoat]

I don't think beating Man Utd proves they're a capable team.

 

[TwanYid]

Never been so torn about anything Spurs-related….

Yes the EL gives us another route to the CL, but at the same time it greatly weakens the one main route we have of making it- getting 4th. Every time I think it would be a good thing I get smacked in the face by the reality that a mentally weak squad (us)- one that is neither battle tested nor laden with talent (again: us) is way better off not playing in Europe if it wants to make top 4.

Liverpool are cruising along because they don't have to play FC Tghystrkichniovelevkjk on a Thursday night in January. Indeed, all their players have had to do is hang out in their Merseyside homes, curl up by the fire, sip a cup of tea, and occasionally glance out the window at their cars, just to make sure their hubcaps are still there…Everton, too, are doing great without having to endure- sorry, participate in- the kissing-your-sister-Cup.

Meanwhile on winter Thursdays our lot have been busy trying to avoid being swallowed whole by some dodgy pitch featuring more craters than an Afghan army training field. Either that or dodging civil wars…

I guess I would say I would prefer to be in Europe (although the EL's not the "Europe" I imagine when I say that) but if we don't make it I won't shed a tear.

Win/win I guess...

Btw- 6th gets it as well, correct?