What do we do now?

[Keith Morris]

I personally think the penalty so early on ruined the spectacle. Liverpool had a lead and backed themselves to be able to protect it and hit us on the break.
If I had to point to a weakness in our game is that as an attacking outfit, our play has become a bit too formulated and predictable.

I agree with this to a point but both sets of players were not at it, we outplayed Liverpool last night but couldn’t get going and Liverpool just looked a shade of themselves. We need pick ourselves up, dust ourselves down and build on the real positives

 

[EastLondonYid]

Scoucers everywhere. The bar was rammed, couldn’t move. Probably 60% spurs. Good atmosphere in there.

Spurs came out the bars letting off smoke bombs after the final whistle. Good fun.

No trouble ?

 

[riggi]

No trouble ?

Bits I think. I didn’t really see any. Scouce called me nobhead and then his mate said they were only messing. I just laughed them off. Couldn’t be leaving the pub to not get back in for the game.

 

[mpickard2087]

Yes you have a point, but i think the other problem is by reaching these finals we have been over achieving. So when you get to major final our players whilst are good there not enough of them world class and ultimately thats the difference in finals. Mane def kicked the ball at Sissokos arm how many of our players would have had the cuteness to think of that.

But that's nothing to do with ability, and as I said previously it's very fairly, if at all, in these games where we get outplayed by the superior footballing outfit. It's just being smart and often our problem is not being switched on for as damn near every second of the game as possible and being lax. I just don't see teams that win things having the first 30 seconds that we had last night, where across the park we make an error, or lose our first battle with our opposite number, half a dozen times in succession and are under pressure in our penalty area immediately. Liverpool were ready and competed for and won every ball from the whistle, what was our excuse?

 

[Phil-spur99]

People will and have just say need more players, but the reality is this isn't a team that has learned it's lessons and doesn't focus on some of the finer details and still has a way to go to set truly winning standards.

These are professional footballers, how many times in life, including in the run up to this game, will they have had the talk about being switched on from the first minute. The importance of winning your battle, laying an early marker, coming out from the off and being ready to go at the right intensity.

What we saw in the first thirty seconds was five or six consecutive actions where we didn't start well. Mainly players losing out in their individual duals, but we also had two players get in each others way, and one player having already switched off(!) and a bit out of position, before the daft penalty. Football is a game of fine margins, but have half a dozen consecutive actions where you're second best across the pitch and you will be under some pressure and then anything can happen. For it to happen in minute one was incredibly disappointing.

I just struggle to see that happening in championship pedigree teams. Big characters (eg. Roy Keane already mentioned), big leaders, big teams striving for perfection just wouldn't stand for it and get caught cold like that. I don't care if people scoff at it, this team can scrap better than any Spurs team I have seen but we're still really lax and naïve in certain, smaller, often overlooked aspects of the game - which can still add up and get you across the line and be the difference - and these often come to the fore at key moments/big games.

We need more leadership and as a group for them to set even better standards and stamp it out. Play smarter, for longer, and strive for perfection in everything they do.

Agree, we still talking about learning but how many lessons do you need to get taught before you realise the players just are not getting it. There is still a mental issue there, we could do with a Roy Keane type personality to toughen them all up.

 

[jolegend]

But this isn't a young and inexperienced group any more. Every year they have had an opportunity to learn from tough moments and defeats.

Poch's first season - Lose a Cup final.
2nd - Lose out in a title race, have a total meltdown.
3rd - Lose out in a title race, lose a cup semi final
4th - Lose another cup semi final, get mugged by Juve in the CL when we wobble for 10 mins.
5th - Lose a cup semi final on penalties, lose a cup final

And if you look at the games themselves, it isn't really where the opposition has gone out and played us off the park. Most of the time we tend to freeze and/or have been hitting the self destruct button. Whether that be the meltdown at the Bridge, or conceding soft set piece goals in key games, or conceding the exact same corner goal to Chelsea in two different semi finals, or players losing the ball on the edge of their area and two seconds later it's in our net, or last night where we didn't get a single action right in the first 30 seconds at the start of the game and found ourselves punished.

At some point you just have to stamp it out and get the job done. I'm not sure how many more learning experiences they should need. The same lax, naïve, silly stuff keeps happening at big moments.

This is what I worry about. It’s ok to keep saying we are building and the team is growing. But at what point do you actually accept it is time to win?

We can’t keep accepting it’s ok to lose because we are on a journey or a plan. Chelsea’s plan never last more than a couple of seasons and their manager changes regularly. Yet they win? And I wouldn’t say they throw cash around like they used to.

 

[Gassin's finest]

Worth pointing out that leaving the stadium last night, we were still singing, still unbowed, and there was none of that bollocks fighting amongst ourselves nonsense that you see other fans do.

 

[hellava_tough]

I do still think we're growing as a team and more importantly a club

But I will concede that a bit more experience and leadership in the side would be a benefit

 

[Monkey boy]

I do still think we're growing as a team and more importantly a club

But I will concede that a bit more experience and leadership in the side would be a benefit

Not that im disagreeing with you but is that really true? In our team we have World cup winners, multiple league winners, Lloris captains France, Vertonghen has previously captained Belgium and Ajax, Eriksen captains Denmark and Kane captains England. Im not sure how many more "leaders" you can shoe horn in to that team.

 

[hellava_tough]

Not that im disagreeing with you but is that really true? In our team we have World cup winners, multiple league winners, Lloris captains France, Vertonghen has previously captained Belgium and Ajax, Eriksen captains Denmark and Kane captains England. Im not sure how many more "leaders" you can shoe horn in to that team.

Yeah, you've got a point to be fair.

I don't know, there are so many variables in football; get a couple of players in the summer and go from there.

 

[rossdapep]

We've got a fair number of things that need fixing going forward.

- Our goals scored is down on previous years. We only hammered Bournemouth and Everton, whereas previously we had at least 10 games in which we scored more than 3.

- This could be due to both Kane and Alli suffering from lack of rest or it could be because need a refresh.

- Eriksen leaving could be a blessing. As fantastic as he has been for us, he does play on the periphery far too often. He's the creative spark you need to turn to when things aren't working. A complete restructure of CM AM may help that. We need a better link or at least an alternative

- A Kane alternative. Ok Sonny and Lucas can step in there, unfortunately neither can link play as well, therefore we need someone who can do it. But not another n9.

- Our fb dynamism. Circa 2017 we had both Walker and Rose pushing the opposite full backs so far back that teams simply buckled. They weren't necessarily the best at assisting but they allowed us to play much higher up which in turn meant more touches for Kane and Alli in the penalty area = more chances/goals. Trippier, Davies and Aurier can't do it, and Rose is getting older. A fresh batch of dynamic vibrant fullbacks are imperative to more goals.

- Which then leads to our defensive issues. When your FBs play high up they need to be able to recover quickly and make the opposition worried about pushing forward themselves. This has cost us a number of goals this season.

- Our goals conceded is up. This is because we don't have sufficient protection. Dier hasn't been at his best and Wanyama is done, FBS already discussed. Sissoko has done an incredible job of being the enforcer and cover but that stagnates our attack as he needs to sit back more often.

- Our ability to retain possession and control. Dembele was absolutely pivotal to this. Teams could barely lay a glove as the Moose was impossible to take the ball off, which led to less giveaways when under pressure, and less goals conceded. Sissoko, again, has done exceptional and nothing wrong but I felt the likes of Eriksen thrived off playing ahead of Dembele as he'd draw in attackers then hold of 2 or 3 players and give Eriksen more space to roam. I can fully see why poch is adamant on Ndombele. Imagine a 3 of Ndombele, Sissoko, Winks/Lo Celso....That would be a midfield feared by others and gives us great balance. If 2 go forward one sits.

Got a lot to fix this summer but I'd be very excited about it if I was Poch because there is a lot already in place, such as;

- The core - Kane, Hugo, Jan, Sonny, Alli, Rose, Sissoko, Winks - add real quality and variation to that and there's no reason we can't compete.
- Never say die attitude - We can't call this team spursy any longer, there is a real fight in this team (comes from the main man) and with fresher and fitter tools things may have fared better but at least it's something that no longer needs a lot of work on.
- Our home - once bedded in I'm sure it'll be our fortress once again. I think we dropped points there due to tiredness and competing for the CL. Next season will be much different at home, we'll have our swagger back.

 

[coys200]

Considering everything that was against us this season we’ve come out of it with 2 massive bonuses.
1. CL qualification again next season.

2. Getting to a CL final

Both are huge money spinners and really a tad fortunate and I’d see both as great bonuses. They’ve swelled the financial coffers raised our profile hugely. With the stadium added in, bar winning the CL levy couldn’t have wished for a better scenario. There’s no excuse this summer.

 

[mil1lion]

I think we've maximised what we can achieve with the current structure. We've reached semi finals, finished 2nd in the league and now Champions League runner up. The idea that this team will grow into champions has fallen just short. They're not the young team Poch took over, we have the experience now. It was always a dream to do it our own way. Now we need to spend some money if we want to go the next step and become winners.

 

[scat1620]

But that's nothing to do with ability, and as I said previously it's very fairly, if at all, in these games where we get outplayed by the superior footballing outfit. It's just being smart and often our problem is not being switched on for as damn near every second of the game as possible and being lax. I just don't see teams that win things having the first 30 seconds that we had last night, where across the park we make an error, or lose our first battle with our opposite number, half a dozen times in succession and are under pressure in our penalty area immediately. Liverpool were ready and competed for and won every ball from the whistle, what was our excuse?

I agree with your argument here, but how do we fix it?

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

I agree with your argument here, but how do we fix it?

New faces = fresh ideas & different abilities mate.

We lack footballing intelligence (hence the reliance on Eriksen & the lack of performance when he's not on it).

The squad is stale. I genuinely think it's as simple as that.

If Eriksen goes, replace him with not just intelligence, but also the tenacity that he lacks. If Eriksen doesn't go, still bring in someone with not just the intelligence, but also the tenacity that he lacks.

Just that one simple tweak would make a massive difference to us, in my opinion. And if we can replicate it in the other areas that we need to freshen up & improve upon, the differences will be even greater.

Onions.

 

[mpickard2087]

I agree with your argument here, but how do we fix it?

Attitude/Culture and leadership, both on and off the pitch. Someone/the leadership group has got to basically be obsessive over the finer details, and we've got to get to a mindset where we are battling for literally every single ball and wanting to eliminate all mistakes from our game.

Top teams, winning teams, are probably absolutely tearing strips off each other about a situation like the first 30 seconds yesterday. They'd probably look at it as a disgrace that mentally they weren't ready and didn't compete. With our lot though, I really do think they're mindset is still 'oh well, unlucky, we tried our best, we should be proud', the comments post-game yesterday were basically along those lines, and are generally feeling a bit sorry for themselves today. We've come a long way, but we still don't really believe, expect, or hold the highest standards.

 

[scat1620]

Attitude/Culture and leadership, both on and off the pitch. Someone/the leadership group has got to basically be obsessive over the finer details, and we've got to get to a mindset where we are battling for literally every single ball and wanting to eliminate all mistakes from our game.

Top teams, winning teams, are probably absolutely tearing strips off each other about a situation like the first 30 seconds yesterday. They'd probably look at it as a disgrace that mentally they weren't ready and didn't compete. With our lot though, I really do think they're mindset is still 'oh well, unlucky, we tried our best, we should be proud', the comments post-game yesterday were basically along those lines, and are generally feeling a bit sorry for themselves today. We've come a long way, but we still don't really believe, expect, or hold the highest standards.

Again I agree, but again I struggle to see exactly where we can make this change. If the change in attitude needs to come from the manager, then I think it would be too big of a risk to twist on a non-Pochettino manager; and if the change it attitude needs to come from senior pros in the team then I'm struggling to think of names that we could realistically sign who would bring in that attitude whilst also having the required technical quality.

I agree with the diagnosis, but the treatment still seems very tricky indeed.

 

[sharky127]

Today hurts even more than it should as ended up in a fight with some bitter Arsenal fans in Reading trying to protect my sister in law...got a broken nose to show for it ?

 

[rossdapep]

Just been having a look into past results.

The season we thrashed teams regularly we only had a front 3 of Eriksen, Kane and Alli with Dembele and Wanyama forming the base.

I think we may need to return to this is we want the best out of Kane and Alli as I think too many players may complicate things.

That season was based on a 4-3-3 with dynamic fullbacks giving us that extra dimension in attack.

It's why we need to make significant investment in dm/CM and the fb positions.

We could then roll out 2 of Alli, Son, Lucas, Lamela and fingers crossed Lo Celso with Kane the focal point.

 

[rossdapep]

Today hurts even more than it should as ended up in a fight with some bitter Arsenal fans in Reading trying to protect my sister in law...got a broken nose to show for it ?

That's awful mate. Fair play for sticking up, unfortunately there are idiots who can only express themselves with their fists.