Racist abuse in our stands, we need to face it if it’s there.

[BringBack_leGin]

There are clearly instances of racist abuse, and other bigotry, in our ground, as there are in every other. Whether it’s as obvious as an aggressive act like that which Rudiger claims (or the million times I’ve heard some tell Son he’d have trapped it if it was a dog) or something less malicious but equally insulting like ‘is Ndombele/ Aurier/ Sissoko injured? No, just being a bit French’ which I’ve also heard, it’s out of order and while intent is a valid factor in determining whether or not a comment constitutes abuse, none of it has any place. For the first time, in fact, I find myself questioning whether we should still chant ‘yid’ as clearly it causes distress to a significant portion of people.

In addition to the above, I’d suggest that Rudiger is in no way being deceitful (unlike the act which saw Son sent off). He genuinely feels he heard racist abuse. This doesn’t mean he’s correct though, and at the same time as fully recognising his right to both raise the issue, report it to the police and see it investigated, one should also recognise that in a volatile, emotional cacophony of sound he might well have been mistaken. The issue that arises is that if the perpetrator is identified then brilliant, a racist idiot receives punitive measures, but if nobody is identified the rhetoric will never be ‘Rudiger got it wrong’ or even ‘Rudiger might have got it wrong’, it’ll be ‘racist gets away with it’ even if that is not correct. The truth is that if nobody is identified as having committed the offence, then the only reasonable action is to heighten security measures, increase awareness and education, but also to not jump to any conclusion, positive or negative, as its just as wrong to assume someone has done something without evidence as it is to brush something under the carpet because it’s too difficult/ impossible to prove. Innocent until proven guilty should always be the standard.

 

[KAISERwells]

So ONE supporter has stated he heard monkey chants in 251 ‘clear as day'

And it sounds like he’s saying it was ONE person making these noises

Where is everyone else in 251 coming forward to substantiate what he clearly heard?

I was in 251. Didn't hear anything racist just a load of swearing as normal. Definitely no monkey chants!!!!!
And 251 is about halfway up the southstand so there's not much chance that anyone on the pitch can hear anything that's going on in 251. Definitely too far away

 

[muppetman]

Fair enough. But some things can't be fully discussed without looking at the wider context. Just in the last few days we've had the media storm over Stormzy's comments and now this. We've also had Gary Neville's comments and Sky's backtracking. We've got a Spurs fan in here defending the founder of the EDL and numerous other posters casting doubt on the accusations even before the findings of the independent inquiry have been released. None of us know what those findings will reveal - maybe it will turn out Rudiger misheard the chants- but to deny we have a problem with racism in this country would be massively naive.

I'm not sure anyone (with the possible exception of the EDL apologist) is saying there is no racism issue in this country as there clearly is. I think what some are expressing is some skepticism about Rudiger and how he managed to see/hear something that nobody else did.

I was very uncomfortable with the fans around me whose first reaction was to claim he was "playing the race card" as I think it's really unlikely any modern footballer would cry wolf in that way. I start from a position of believing the player is genuine (but possibly mistaken), but will await the outcome of the investigation to shed light on it hopefully sooner rather than later.

What is also interesting is the amount of coverage this has received with the FA, PL and various MP's now wanting to get into this but the Chelsea fan who was arrested has received quite a lot less.

Chelsea supporter arrested for allegedly racially abusing Son Heung-min

English football’s racism crisis took a new twist after it emerged that a Chelsea supporter was arrested for racially abusing Tottenham Hotspur’s Son Heung-min on Sunday

www.theguardian.com

 

[CowInAComa]

Its amazing that in a stand of many thousands all jeering, shouting abuse and making noise in a febrile moment of the match that you'll can say for certain that no one could possibly have made a racist remark or gesture amongst the thousands of people surrounding you in the stand , and that you have perfect 20/20 perception of what everyone was saying and doing at any given time. I know during those sort of events I couldnt tell you for certain what the guy behind me is shouting.

Its almost a superpower you have to be honest.


Would be delighted to fidn out it was all a misunderstanding but my gut feeling is that some cretin probably shouted something twattish in the heat of the moment, law of averages says at least one knucklehead in the entire stand is a racist and got carried away.
I doubt very much that there was any collective sustained monkey noises or racial chanting/abuse, because on the whole Spurs fans wouldnt stand for that.

 

[Shadydan]

Fair enough. But some things can't be fully discussed without looking at the wider context. Just in the last few days we've had the media storm over Stormzy's comments and now this. We've also had Gary Neville's comments and Sky's backtracking. We've got a Spurs fan in here defending the founder of the EDL and numerous other posters casting doubt on the accusations even before the findings of the independent inquiry have been released. None of us know what those findings will reveal - maybe it will turn out Rudiger misheard the chants- but to deny we have a problem with racism in this country would be massively naive.

Problem is the person who is defending the DVLA is clearly trolling, there's no point stoking the fire.

 

[CowInAComa]

I'm not sure anyone (with the possible exception of the EDL apologist) is saying there is no racism issue in this country as there clearly is. I think what some are expressing is some skepticism about Rudiger and how he managed to see/hear something that nobody else did.

I was very uncomfortable with the fans around me whose first reaction was to claim he was "playing the race card" as I think it's really unlikely any modern footballer would cry wolf in that way. I start from a position of believing the player is genuine (but possibly mistaken), but will await the outcome of the investigation to shed light on it hopefully sooner rather than later.

What is also interesting is the amount of coverage this has received with the FA, PL and various MP's now wanting to get into this but the Chelsea fan who was arrested has received quite a lot less.

Chelsea supporter arrested for allegedly racially abusing Son Heung-min

English football’s racism crisis took a new twist after it emerged that a Chelsea supporter was arrested for racially abusing Tottenham Hotspur’s Son Heung-min on Sunday

www.theguardian.com

'Chelsea fan arrested for racially abusing Son', was the leading headline on BBC pretty much all day yesterday.

 

[muppetman]

'Chelsea fan arrested for racially abusing Son', was the leading headline on BBC pretty much all day yesterday.

I wasn't saying it received no coverage - the fact I linked to an article in a national newspaper kinda gives that away.

I dunno, the level of outrage caused by the game being stopped and the announcement over the tannoy compared with what appears to be a very similar incident of one idiot being racist but quietly asked to leave was interesting to me. Perhaps it's because Rudiger heard and was personally affected while Son didn't hear and so was oblivious?

Personally, I welcome things like this and the Bulgaria game as it brings racism out of the shadows, into the light and hopefully something more serious than fines for the club and bans for the individuals can then be done. Would "fans" be less likely to do this sort of thing if the club was docked points or forced to play behind closed doors? Is it right to punish all of the fans for the actions of one or two? Should fans police themselves?

I don't know what the answer is but we don't appear to be making huge progress with this as a society, in fact it feels like we are going backwards and more idiots are feeling it's OK to say some of this shit again.

 

[Caco]

Its amazing that in a stand of many thousands all jeering, shouting abuse and making noise in a febrile moment of the match that you'll can say for certain that no one could possibly have made a racist remark or gesture amongst the thousands of people surrounding you in the stand , and that you have perfect 20/20 perception of what everyone was saying and doing at any given time. I know during those sort of events I couldnt tell you for certain what the guy behind me is shouting.

Its almost a superpower you have to be honest.


Would be delighted to fidn out it was all a misunderstanding but my gut feeling is that some cretin probably shouted something twattish in the heat of the moment, law of averages says at least one knucklehead in the entire stand is a racist and got carried away.
I doubt very much that there was any collective sustained monkey noises or racial chanting/abuse, because on the whole Spurs fans wouldnt stand for that.

Yeah, can't disagree with what you're saying, but Rudiger gestured that someone directed monkey chants towards him, which I'm glad to say I've actually heard myself, but I'd imagine the acoustics of booing would sound very similar, and even though Son kicked out at him, he did feign injury so booing would have been justified. Racist abuse, if it did happen wouldn't have been justified, no matter what he did.
Maybe the amount of attention being placed on this is due to our state of the art stadium and the belief that it will be picked up on camera, but this far nothing so the scepticism has foundations.

 

[Gassin's finest]

Problem is the person who is defending the DVLA is clearly trolling, there's no point stoking the fire.

Nowt wrong with the DVLA.

They sorted out my change of address and sent me my new license in a couple of days. Good online service too.

 

[southlondonyiddo]

I was in 251. Didn't hear anything racist just a load of swearing as normal. Definitely no monkey chants!!!!!
And 251 is about halfway up the southstand so there's not much chance that anyone on the pitch can hear anything that's going on in 251. Definitely too far away

That’s what I thought. 251 starts from row 30 like 252?

The safe standing below us first 30 rows is another block number isn’t it?

How the hell can someone in 251 have heard something that a player heard without thousands and thousands of supporters hearing!!!

Edit: Just looked on the seating plan and 251/2 etc go right down to pitch side probably up to about row 48ish!

 

[Blake Griffin]

Its amazing that in a stand of many thousands all jeering, shouting abuse and making noise in a febrile moment of the match that you'll can say for certain that no one could possibly have made a racist remark or gesture amongst the thousands of people surrounding you in the stand , and that you have perfect 20/20 perception of what everyone was saying and doing at any given time. I know during those sort of events I couldnt tell you for certain what the guy behind me is shouting.

Its almost a superpower you have to be honest.


Would be delighted to fidn out it was all a misunderstanding but my gut feeling is that some cretin probably shouted something twattish in the heat of the moment, law of averages says at least one knucklehead in the entire stand is a racist and got carried away.
I doubt very much that there was any collective sustained monkey noises or racial chanting/abuse, because on the whole Spurs fans wouldnt stand for that.

could apply this to rudiger as well though.

in that moment he has literally tens of thousands of fans booing him, calling him a cheat, c*nt, w*nker and whatever else but amongst all of that has managed to pick out a couple of idiots(his own words) making monkey sounds?

 

[poc]

Yeah, agree with this.
Or they will just be cleaned up...

Please do it’s ridiculous and they are hijacking a decent discussion

 

[CowInAComa]

could apply this to rudiger as well though.

in that moment he has literally tens of thousands of fans booing him, calling him a cheat, c*nt, w*nker and whatever else but amongst all of that has managed to pick out a couple of idiots(his own words) making monkey sounds?

It's entirely plausible that a boo can be misinterpreted. And I wouldn't rule it out.

But it's also entirely plausible that a black guy is acutely sensitive to racial abuse. I can't think of the name of the psychological process but it's fairly typical (like when you pick out someone saying your name in a crowded environment).

 

[southlondonyiddo]

Its amazing that in a stand of many thousands all jeering, shouting abuse and making noise in a febrile moment of the match that you'll can say for certain that no one could possibly have made a racist remark or gesture amongst the thousands of people surrounding you in the stand , and that you have perfect 20/20 perception of what everyone was saying and doing at any given time. I know during those sort of events I couldnt tell you for certain what the guy behind me is shouting.

Its almost a superpower you have to be honest.


Would be delighted to fidn out it was all a misunderstanding but my gut feeling is that some cretin probably shouted something twattish in the heat of the moment, law of averages says at least one knucklehead in the entire stand is a racist and got carried away.
I doubt very much that there was any collective sustained monkey noises or racial chanting/abuse, because on the whole Spurs fans wouldnt stand for that.

So a player 15/30 yards away on the pitch heard it but only ONE fan and no stewards etc etc?

Until we learn otherwise my take is that at best both were mistaken in what they thought they heard

 

[punkisback]

It's entirely plausible that a boo can be misinterpreted. And I wouldn't rule it out.

But it's also entirely plausible that a black guy is acutely sensitive to racial abuse. I can't think of the name of the psychological process but it's fairly typical (like when you pick out someone saying your name in a crowded environment).

It's called cocktail party syndrome.

 

[Gb160]

None of us know what those findings will reveal - maybe it will turn out Rudiger misheard the chants

That cannot be the conclusion.
At most the findings will be inconclusive, which is how things currently stand.

 

[CowInAComa]

So a player 15/30 yards away on the pitch heard it but only ONE fan and no stewards etc etc?

Until we learn otherwise my take is that at best both were mistaken in what they thought they heard

Go to a crowded noisey pub and see if you don't pick up on the guy at the back shouting that 'that southlondonyiddo is a **** ' but yet can't tell what the person next to you was saying to his mate.

You are attuned to focus and pick out what is relevant to you.

 

[southlondonyiddo]

Go to a crowded noisey pub and see if you don't pick up on the guy at the back shouting that 'that southlondonyiddo is a **** ' but yet can't tell what the person next to you was saying to his mate.

You are attuned to focus and pick out what is relevant to you.

Everyone calls me a **** in the pub so I’d need another example ?

 

[Styopa]

It's entirely plausible that a boo can be misinterpreted. And I wouldn't rule it out.

But it's also entirely plausible that a black guy is acutely sensitive to racial abuse. I can't think of the name of the psychological process but it's fairly typical (like when you pick out someone saying your name in a crowded environment).

Agreed. I think an issue in this thread is too many people are starting from a position of skeptism about Rudiger's claims. I think, for the reasons you have given, we should treat Rudiger's claims with the principle of charity rather than applying the much tougher legal standard of innocence before guilt for perpetrators.

 

[CowInAComa]

That cannot be the conclusion.
At most the findings will be inconclusive, which is how things currently stand.

I think in that event the club will use it for PR. Collect all the possible evidence or lack of, invite Rudiger to review it and ideally accept the possibility he misheard. And wrap it up in reaffirming our stance on racism with a nice media statement.

As a club I think we have handled it well, both immediately and since then.