Player Watch - Steven Bergwijn signs for Ajax

[Shadydan]

The thing with Lamela is that he's proven himself a very strong attacking threat, even without goals or assists (which he's very unlucky not to have this year).
Purely defensive wingers exist, but they're mostly in lesser teams, not teams competing for Premier Leagues. Even the more defensive-minded wingers in past top teams like Antonio Valencia and Park Ji Sung provided more offensively than glimpses and touches.


Right, because we're on top of the table, we should all just mindlessly conform to the same view and not have any opinions on what could be improved...

Granted but I think we can at least try and do a better job of understanding why certain players are being picked and maybe look into the reasons why the manager wants them on the pitch. He managed to stay on the pitch for the majority of matches, if the manager though that he wasn't doing his job then he would have subbed him off surely?

Perfectly fine to say that Bergwijn didn't have the best game going forward but saying that Ben Davies could have played is stupid seeing as he doesn't have the pace or acceleration to play on the counter attack.

Everyone is free to question the tactics and the setup but let's try and apply some critical thinking to the situation shall we?

 

[cider spurs]

He's a Haddock, not a whale.

He orca know better.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

That doesn't make any sense to me, because if you want a winger for his defensive attributes and work rate there are other players in the squad who can do that job better without having to move Son to the right. It's entirely puzzling to me why Bergwijn is starting in the league.

I actually think v both City and Chelsea Son moving to the right was more to do with our attacking plan, as in both instances the opposition right back was far likelier to match Son for pace then their left back. As it turns out, Chilwell had a very good game v Son whereas Cancelo did not.

 

[PeeEyeEmPee]

I thought Bergwijn was poor yesterday. He got the ball in promising areas a few times, and was let down by either decision-making or execution seemingly every single time.

In general, I really hate when a winger's (or any attacker for that matter) perceived defensive qualities are considered more important than their productivity going forward. It's why I was always so down on Lennon, and don't really care much for Lamela. Being able to do "all the other things" and having "more than just goals and assists" to your game are both great attributes to have, as long as they're not just compensating for the fact you're not any good at your actual function.

 

[Duck]

Granted but I think we can at least try and do a better job of understanding why certain players are being picked and maybe look into the reasons why the manager wants them on the pitch. He managed to stay on the pitch for the majority of matches, if the manager though that he wasn't doing his job then he would have subbed him off surely?

Perfectly fine to say that Bergwijn didn't have the best game going forward but saying that Ben Davies could have played is stupid seeing as he doesn't have the pace or acceleration to play on the counter attack.

Everyone is free to question the tactics and the setup but let's try and apply some critical thinking to the situation shall we?

I was saying that in response to the people saying he's in the team for his defensive contribution, despite contributing very little in the final third. This kind of output is what should be expected from a fullback, not a winger, hence the rhetorical question about Ben Davies.

The way I see it, Bergwijn is in the team because it's his turn to be given a run of games. Should he continue to not produce much in the final third, someone else will be given a run of games.

 

[cider spurs]

In other news...

Spurs still sit top of the table after playing both City and Chelsea in their last two premier league fixtures.

 

[Haddock]

Career? I'm more interested in recent form.
Bergwijn has 0 goals and 0 assists in 6 Premier League appearances this year, totaling to 314 minutes. Putting stats aside and judging him on what I actually see, he does not strike me as a particularly damaging player. Most of the complements he seems to be getting here are for glimpses and nice touches, because that's mostly all he's really shown, glimpses and touches. He doesn't look even half as threatening as any of Liverpool's front three of Mane, Jota and Salah, and the stats further reflect that.
If anyone wants to pull the boring old line that comparing Bergwijn to those guys isn't fair, consider this: Do you think we're contending for trophies this year? I'd like to think we are, and if so, I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect more in the final third than what Bergwijn has produced this season.

Working hard defensively is not enough, simple as that.

Oh, the classic fallacy of relativization. Why not move the goalposts a bit more? I mean, Bergwijn isn't as good as Mbappe. But then again, none of our other alternatives are either. The fact that Liverpool has a better squad than us is not an argument for not playing Bergwijn. It's just an argument that we could upgrade of options on the wing.

I'm saying Bergwijn is the best player suited to the system, especially in tough away fixtures. You're effectively saying anyone not playing on par with Sadio Mané is unacceptable.

Anyway - We're contending for trophies right now! And yes ideally Bergwijn scores more goals. But we're competing right now, with Bergwijn in the starting eleven.

Mou, the lads, (...that includes Bergwijn!) must be doing something right.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

I actually think v both City and Chelsea Son moving to the right was more to do with our attacking plan, as in both instances the opposition right back was far likelier to match Son for pace then their left back. As it turns out, Chilwell had a very good game v Son whereas Cancelo did not.

Maybe, it's an interesting theory for the match vs. City and you may be very correct. But vs. Chelsea, and this is not due to hindsight, I think that walking into that match vs. Chelsea, you know that both FBs are really good and if you switch up Son's position based on which FB he should face, you are at best only gaining tiny margins.

 

[Gassin's finest]

I really like Stevie, and he was really good for us last season. He's clearly a canny player, and he'll run and work for the team all day.

But for some reason his final product has eluded him this season. Not sure why that is... maybe he feels pressure from the Bale signing.

 

[Duck]

Oh, the classic fallacy of relativization. Why not move the goalposts a bit more? I mean, Bergwijn isn't as good as Mbappe. But then again, none of our other alternatives are either. The fact that Liverpool has a better squad than us is not an argument for not playing Bergwijn. It's just an argument that we could upgrade of options on the wing.

Anyway - We're contending for trophies right now! And yes ideally Bergwijn scores more goals. But we're competing right now, with Bergwijn in the starting eleven.

Mou, the lads, (...that includes Bergwijn!) must be doing something right.

Why are you so angsty and passive aggressive? Are you always this sensitive to critical views on Bergwijn? Do you always get this aggro?

I'm saying Bergwijn is the best player suited to the system, especially in tough away fixtures. You're effectively saying anyone not playing on par with Sadio Mané is unacceptable.

No, I'm just saying that I think we have better options, and they should be played accordingly. Sadio Mane is the benchmark of what we should be looking for, and I believe the other wingers on our list give us a better chance of hitting that mark than Bergwijn does.

But we're competing right now, with Bergwijn in the starting eleven.

Bergwijn has started the last two games, and he offered very little in the final third both times. The game against West Ham was the only other game he started in, and was easily the weakest of the front three in that game. He's hardly the reason we're "competing", and I expect he will make way for Lucas or Bale soon.

 

[Haddock]

Why are you so angsty and passive aggressive? Are you always this sensitive to critical views on Bergwijn? Do you always get this aggro?


No, I'm just saying that I think we have better options, and they should be played accordingly. Sadio Mane is the benchmark of what we should be looking for, and I believe the other wingers on our list give us a better chance of hitting that mark than we do with Bergwijn.


Bergwijn has only started the last two games, and he offered very little in the final third both times. He also started against West Ham, and was easily the weakest of the front three in that game. He's hardly the reason we're "competing", and I expect he will be rotated out for Lucas or Bale soon.

Let's bury the hatchet. We're pretty much in agreement to be fair. I agree Bale and Lucas are better players offensively. But Bergwijn is, at the moment, best suited to the role Mourinho first and foremost wants the player to fill. I'm certain Mourinho sees it in this exact way.

(...and just a tip. Try to refrain from 'spam' and 'dislike' rate everyone you're not agreeing with. It's just unnecessary and doesn't help the discussion)

 

[allatsea]

In other news...

Spurs still sit top of the table after playing both City and Chelsea in their last two premier league fixtures.

Happy Days!

 

[Timberwolf]

I think he's doing a solid job for us at the moment, but has lacked the spark he had when he first arrived.

I feel like he's much better than he's shown in the past couple of games and needs a goal or some kind of confidence boost to push on.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

But vs. Chelsea, and this is not due to hindsight, I think that walking into that match vs. Chelsea, you know that both FBs are really good and if you switch up Son's position based on which FB he should face, you are at best only gaining tiny margins.

I think you’re right in that the margins are tiny, and that was proven by the fact that Son didn’t get the better off Chilwell. He also may well have got the better of James by cutting in onto his right rather than left, but we can’t know this. I’d suggest that a chunk of credit goes to the Chelsea defence, but also that James is a very powerful runner compared to the slighter Chilwell (I was amazed when I saw James next to Kane at a corner) and Jose, rightly or wrongly, would’ve seen that as reason to go after the full back who might be caught out by a Son burst, not to mention has had a recent injury.

I agree that the difference was probably marginal, but Jose had built a career on marginal gains after all so I understand it. Personally, I think we have enough about us to have got at them in midfield, had more possession and trusted out attack to outdo their, but given their form and our record at Stamford Bridge I empathise with Jose wanting to mitigate their strengths as a priority.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

He'll need time I reckon. I think there's a good player there (certainly a useful player to have) but I question how high his output (i.e. goals/assists) will be on what I've seen

 

[brasil_spur]

I thought he had a solid, but not inspiring game yesterday. If we'd nicked a goal and won the game there wouldn't be much criticism for him today and there were other players on the pitch that also didn't contribute enough in attack.

I think he looked tired towards the end of the game and was surprised we didn't sub Lucas or Bale on to replace him at about the 75-80 min mark. In fact even the Davies sub with Reguilon being pushed further up the pitch into a wing role would have made sense 10 minutes earlier IMO.

 

[Timberwolf]

He'll need time I reckon. I think there's a good player there (certainly a useful player to have) but I question how high his output (i.e. goals/assists) will be on what I've seen

I feel he's actually a lot more creative and threatening than he's shown recently - he's made some handy assists since arriving - and he was a great all round forward at PSV both as a goalscorer and a provider. It just seems like he's holding back at the moment and is still adapting to playing in a Mourinho team/being a bit-part player. I suspect it's a mental thing with him. If he truly believes in himself I think he can go far.

 

[ralphs bald spot]

I think he's doing a solid job for us at the moment, but has lacked the spark he had when he first arrived.

I feel like he's much better than he's shown in the past couple of games and needs a goal or some kind of confidence boost to push on.

To be fair to Bergwin when he arrived there was no Kane and Son for a lot of it, so him and Dele were our attacking threat and he was bound to look more threatening. In the last couple of games he has been brought in to do a job and I think he has done ok. It might not be the swashbuckling winger but to be honest you have to kind of get used to being a bit more pragmatic under Mourinho.

I think that he has got Mourinho's trust in these type of games means you will see quite a bit more of him and the tracking back is an important part of his job

 

[yido_number1]

Bergwijn is currently Jose's Willian. Hard working and tracking back with less forward threat right now. Clearly in there for a tactical reason and I think Lucas is the better attacking substitute with his pace and freshness. Hopefully we can see a bit more magic from Bergwijn as he finds his feet again.

 

[slartibartfast]

He's hardly played for ages.
Surely that doesnt help!