Jose Mourinho

[sausage]

Well what I'd say to argue that is that we know for a fact that we bid for Grealish because Steve Bruce confirmed that we had made an offer and I'd have to assume that Levy wasn't going to be pushing for that signing despite Villa having new owners on deadline day unless Poch gave him his seal of approval therefore I'd point to that as evidence that Poch did infact want signings in the summer 2018. Along with that I'd point to De Jong confirming he had an opportunity to join spurs but decided it wasn't the move for him. Nothing anybody Spurs can do about that but again that shows that Poch did infact want a player.

All this to say that I think there's enough Evidence to show that Poch didn't approve a summer of no transfers, simply that was the hand that was dealt and he had to go with those cards.

It doesn't - it shows that Levy was trying to make signings. We don't know that Poch wanted a player - after all, apparently he signed Sissoko without Poch knowing (so say on here).

 

[[email protected]]

We scouted one from his Norwich days and Tielmans was a player talked about openly on this very site by people who then criticised the fact we didn't make a move for him ... Nothing to do with me mate, all to do with the info banded about on this site.

Thanks Vinny! Absolutely mate, I can see that the information hadn't come from you, I just wondered if you'd seen some ITK that I missed. Some posters seem to be inferring that, had it not been for Poch, then Maddison and Tieleman would undoubtedly have been Spurs players by now. I was wondering why they were presenting this as some kind of fait accompli; that all Poch needed to do was give his approval and those 2 players would be ours. (Sadly, history tells us our transfer activity is rarely that seamless!) I looked but couldn't find any ITK posts that stated that we'd agreed fees for those players but then Poch had turned down the opportunity to sign them so perhaps it's just rumours or spin. I'm still hoping we might pull a rabbit out of the hat and find a striker replacement mate, but won't be holding my breath! Take it easy Vinny.

 

[wrd]

It doesn't - it shows that Levy was trying to make signings. We don't know that Poch wanted a player - after all, apparently he signed Sissoko without Poch knowing (so say on here).

Well it says that in his Poch's book but I take your first point however I find it hard to believe that Levy was chasing Grealish even after they got new owners unless Poch gave the word to because when it got to deadline day it became more than just a possible bargain, it'd hardly be worth DL's troubles if his manager didn't even want it but I guess depending what side of the fence you're on you're going to see things from a different perspective.

 

[sausage]

Well it says that in his Poch's book but I take your first point however I find it hard to believe that Levy was chasing Grealish even after they got new owners unless Poch gave the word to because when it got to deadline day it became more than just a possible bargain, it'd hardly be worth DL's troubles if his manager didn't even want it but I guess depending what side of the fence you're on you're going to see things from a different perspective.

Sissoko wasn't a bargain on TDD, though - why would he only be chasing Grealish if that was a bargain? That feels like an ingrained preconception.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

Thanks Vinny! Absolutely mate, I can see that the information hadn't come from you, I just wondered if you'd seen some ITK that I missed. Some posters seem to be inferring that, had it not been for Poch, then Maddison and Tieleman would undoubtedly have been Spurs players by now. I was wondering why they were presenting this as some kind of fait accompli; that all Poch needed to do was give his approval and those 2 players would be ours. (Sadly, history tells us our transfer activity is rarely that seamless!) I looked but couldn't find any ITK posts that stated that we'd agreed fees for those players but then Poch had turned down the opportunity to sign them so perhaps it's just rumours or spin. I'm still hoping we might pull a rabbit out of the hat and find a striker replacement mate, but won't be holding my breath! Take it easy Vinny.

I will keep the powder dry as best I can, balance and pinches of salt etc (I suggested yesterday that Mourinho needs some backing in this particular window fullback and holding central mid along with a striker clearly being the most obvious and take your pick out of them 2 out of 3 etc) and then the run in to the finish of the season followed by the summer window. If by that point he hasn't got the beginnings of a functioning squad in the mould that he requires then I suppose it's going to be stormy waters.

We'll all just have to wait and see because a lot of the stuff being tossed back and forth right now is old ground (somewhat). Let's see what the next twelve days hold for us.

 

[[email protected]]

I will keep the powder dry as best I can, balance and pinches of salt etc (I suggested yesterday that Mourinho needs some backing in this particular window fullback and holding central mid along with a striker clearly being the most obvious and take your pick out of them 2 out of 3 etc) and then the run in to the finish of the season followed by the summer window. If by that point he hasn't got the beginnings of a functioning squad in the mould that he requires then I suppose it's going to be stormy waters.

We'll all just have to wait and see because a lot of the stuff being tossed back and forth right now is old ground (somewhat). Let's see what the next twelve days hold for us.

Most definitely mate! I fear we've seen how this plays out all too often. But as you've been saying, there's no point in losing our shit; whatever will be will be. Hope you're well, Vinny and fingers crossed for a more positive rest of the season. Take care mate

 

[wrd]

Sissoko wasn't a bargain on TDD, though - why would he only be chasing Grealish if that was a bargain? That feels like an ingrained preconception.

No that's absolute nonsense that it's an ingrained preconception there's been more than enough information about why the deal didn't happen.

We were chasing Grealish when they had money issues and we held off from pulling the trigger because they were struggling big time without investment and the longer we left it the more chance we had of getting a great player for a decent fee.

‘Jack Grealish would be a Tottenham player if they did their business early’

Aston Villa manager Steve Bruce has revealed to talkSPORT Tottenham would have signed Jack Grealish had they come in for the midfielder earlier in the summer. Spurs’ pursuit of the 22-year-old star…

talksport.com

“It’s fair to say we were in such a bad position financially that if Tottenham had have done their work early, then I’m sure he would have been a Tottenham player,” the Villa boss said on Friday’s Alan Brazil Sports Breakfast.

Here's Trix giving his insight to the deal.

The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - The Wheels on the Bus

Barcelona don’t have a chairman who believes English clubs need to stop spending money and follow the European model of not spending much! That’s really taken out of context. What Levy is actually referring to is net spend. This forum and the PL in general are obsessed with it, and use it to...

www.spurscommunity.co.uk

So there we go as I said it was looking like it was going to be a possible bargain, absolutely nothing to do with a "ingrained preconception" whatsoever. We continued to try and do the deal even after they got new owners even after it no longer became a bargain but we absolutely were looking to hold off and squeeze as much money off the deal as possible.

Also I never once claimed Sissoko was a bargain, all I said was that it was Levy who wanted us to sign Sissoko and the evidence is the words in Poch's own book.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

Most definitely mate! I fear we've seen how this plays out all too often. But as you've been saying, there's no point in losing our shit; whatever will be will be. Hope you're well, Vinny and fingers crossed for a more positive rest of the season. Take care mate

We all suffer in the long run don't we, as fans? Frustration outing itself as we all want success on that ruddy football pitch! You look after yourself as well mate. Fingers crossed indeed for some more positive, proactive news! Farewell.

 

[sausage]

No that's absolute nonsense that it's an ingrained preconception there's been more than enough information about why the deal didn't happen.

We were chasing Grealish when they had money issues and we held off from pulling the trigger because they were struggling big time without investment and the longer we left it the more chance we had of getting a great player for a decent fee.

‘Jack Grealish would be a Tottenham player if they did their business early’

Aston Villa manager Steve Bruce has revealed to talkSPORT Tottenham would have signed Jack Grealish had they come in for the midfielder earlier in the summer. Spurs’ pursuit of the 22-year-old star…

talksport.com

“It’s fair to say we were in such a bad position financially that if Tottenham had have done their work early, then I’m sure he would have been a Tottenham player,” the Villa boss said on Friday’s Alan Brazil Sports Breakfast.

Here's Trix giving his insight to the deal.

The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - The Wheels on the Bus

Barcelona don’t have a chairman who believes English clubs need to stop spending money and follow the European model of not spending much! That’s really taken out of context. What Levy is actually referring to is net spend. This forum and the PL in general are obsessed with it, and use it to...

www.spurscommunity.co.uk

So there we go as I said it was looking like it was going to be a possible bargain, absolutely nothing to do with a "ingrained preconception" whatsoever. We continued to try and do the deal even after they got new owners even after it no longer became a bargain but we absolutely were looking to hold off and squeeze as much money off the deal as possible.

Also I never once claimed Sissoko was a bargain, all I said was that it was Levy who wanted us to sign Sissoko and the evidence is the words in Poch's own book.

All of that is contradictory to the Trix ITK you posted:

"They never wanted to sell so were holding out for as long as possible hoping for a cash injection so they didn't need to sell, but it got to a point where they had to. We moved then the new investors appeared. It wasn't like we could have just paid a bit more and got it done because that wasn't possible."

Need to draw a line under it here, as it doesn't sound like something that is resolvable by reasoning. There's a lot of confirmation bias based on personal feeling.

 

[wrd]

All of that is contradictory to the Trix ITK you posted:

"They never wanted to sell so were holding out for as long as possible hoping for a cash injection so they didn't need to sell, but it got to a point where they had to. We moved then the new investors appeared. It wasn't like we could have just paid a bit more and got it done because that wasn't possible."

Need to draw a line under it here, as it doesn't sound like something that is resolvable by reasoning. There's a lot of confirmation bias based on personal feeling.

It'd probably be easier to draw lines under conversations if you didn't end every post with suggesting people other than yourself have confirmation bias and ingrained preconceptions. All I said was that initially we were looking at getting a bargain in Grealish which you seem to take as a negative remark towards Levy which it isn't, it's shrewd to take advantage of situations where you can but my point was when the situation was no longer a bargain we still tried to get him anyway.

 

[sausage]

It'd probably be easier to draw lines under conversations if you didn't end every post with suggesting people other than yourself have confirmation bias and ingrained preconceptions. All I said was that initially we were looking at getting a bargain in Grealish which you seem to take as a negative remark towards Levy which it isn't, it's shrewd to take advantage of situations where you can but my point was when the situation was no longer a bargain we still tried to get him anyway.

My point was this:
Sissoko wasn't a bargain on TDD, but apparently Levy signed him anyway without Poch's approval (with usual caveats of truth). As a result, why would you disbelieve that the same scenario could occur with Grealish?

As an aside, I didn't say "other than yourself have confirmation bias and ingrained preconceptions". It was a generic statement that everyone involve is likely to.

 

[wrd]

My point was this:
Sissoko wasn't a bargain on TDD, but apparently Levy signed him anyway without Poch's approval (with usual caveats of truth). As a result, why would you disbelieve that the same scenario could occur with Grealish?

As an aside, I didn't say "other than yourself have confirmation bias and ingrained preconceptions". It was a generic statement that everyone involve is likely to.

Because Newcastle were actively looking to sell and Grealish my point was that the deal was a hassle to do because the owners were adamant they were not selling so I feel like if the manager isn't even onboard with the deal it's not worth the arduous process of trying to convince their owners otherwise whereas sissoko it wasn't a difficult to do. Tbf to Levy, he was proven right about Sissoko becoming a worthwhile signing.

 

[Frozen_Waffles]

You improve by buying the likes of Maddison or Tielemens, not turning your nose up at them though.

Yes, but everyone on here who are bashing levy also forget that we had itk that Poch turned down alot of players (including tielemens).

I am still not a massive fan of either. The problem that we didn't know is that Dier is probably gone. Wanyama we should have sold and replaced and going into the season with only Kane is always going to be risky. Lo celso, sess and ndombele were always going to take a season to settle.

I think we need to calm the f down. We have been in this situation before where we have made panic buys and then struggled to shift em.

We are desperate for a CF and a DM but I don't want us to spunk money away on West ham signings. If the players we want are not available, then a couple of loans could be the way to go.

For the first time in a while, I look through the rumours for this window and there are very few players that I actually want if any.

Sign the right players not just any old shit.

 

[sausage]

Sign the right players not just any old shit.

That's the problem isn't it - we know this, collectively, but there are still large pockets (if not the majority) who believe that you should make at least one signing per window, regardless of quality.

 

[gavspur]

I think we could do a lot worse than put a wad of dosh down on Grealish, McNeil, and possibly Rice (not completely sold on Rice, but can’t think of any other young Brits who play DM). Although I’m guessing those three would cost us anywhere between £150-180mill?? Plus side to those three is that they are constantly playing Prem football already, know the levels and the mentality of the league.
Will never happen, just thinking out loud.

 

[KikoSpurs]

It obviously wouldn't be fair to the team or Jose, but oddly I do actually support the sentiment behind this. An empty stadium and no additional match day takings might actually embarrass DL into action.

Here in Brazil is very common to the crowd completely stops to go to the stadium if the team is being bad managed. Sooner or later something changes.

If it's not on the pitch it's the ticket price.

 

[yido_number1]

Jose was pretty clear right at the beginning that he believed in the squad and wouldn't be looking to sign players. The very reason you'd guess Levy did what he did, was that Mourinho was saying he'd get the best out of the squad whereas Poch wanted to rebuild.

Jose's stance in public has only changed based on injuries. He's got Gedson in for Sissoko who's likely to miss most of the rest of the season. And wants a striker to come in for Kane who could miss the rest of the season. Injuries have changed the situation.

Coming in Mid Season you would never say publicly that the squad is aging and trash and that you want to replace 60% of it. That just wouldn't help motivate the squad. There is just no way on earth that Mourinho didn't come in expecting to make changes and being told he would be backed to do that.

He even said recently he knew the contract situation of four players I assume Rose, Vertonghen, Alderweireld and Eriksen. It would appear that 3 of the 4 are on their way out purely based on his recent press conference. In the last 3/4 years that represents our first choice cb, first choice lb and first choice AM.

There is no way that statement was anything other than hoping to keep the squad motivated and toe the Levy line of not making it public what we intend to do.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Coming in Mid Season you would never say publicly that the squad is aging and trash and that you want to replace 60% of it. That just wouldn't help motivate the squad. There is just no way on earth that Mourinho didn't come in expecting to make changes and being told he would be backed to do that.

He even said recently he knew the contract situation of four players I assume Rose, Vertonghen, Alderweireld and Eriksen. It would appear that 3 of the 4 are on their way out purely based on his recent press conference. In the last 3/4 years that represents our first choice cb, first choice lb and first choice AM.

There is no way that statement was anything other than hoping to keep the squad motivated and toe the Levy line of not making it public what we intend to do.

100% spot on, great post.

I get the frustration of many here with regards to the state that the current squad is in but Jose needs some time and a pre-season.
If we can get rid of Rose, possibly Jan and Eriksen and bring in between now and start of next season a ST, DM, RB and AM all of good quality and get our big players back from injury then we will have a settled quality squad, right now its the storm before the calm.

BUT if Levy doesn't invest then sure jose will throw his toys and our results will suffer.

Apart from us and liverpool no-one has signed anyone of note yet, Jan is a tricky window and usually goes down to the last few weeks as many moving parts in such a short chaotic window.

 

[SpartanSpur]

100% spot on, great post.

I get the frustration of many here with regards to the state that the current squad is in but Jose needs some time and a pre-season.
If we can get rid of Rose, possibly Jan and Eriksen and bring in between now and start of next season a ST, DM, RB and AM all of good quality and get our big players back from injury then we will have a settled quality squad, right now its the storm before the calm.

BUT if Levy doesn't invest then sure jose will throw his toys and our results will suffer.

Apart from us and liverpool no-one has signed anyone of note yet, Jan is a tricky window and usually goes down to the last few weeks as many moving parts in such a short chaotic window.

I think there is a stat going around that says 80-90% of January business usually happens in the last few days. Frustrating as we need certain signings yesterday but it seems currently everyone is kicking the tyres and waiting for the transfer merry-go-round to start. Hopefully things fall in our favour, CE, Wanyama and KWP go and Jose gets a decent new DM and Striker.

 

[yido_number1]

100% spot on, great post.

I get the frustration of many here with regards to the state that the current squad is in but Jose needs some time and a pre-season.
If we can get rid of Rose, possibly Jan and Eriksen and bring in between now and start of next season a ST, DM, RB and AM all of good quality and get our big players back from injury then we will have a settled quality squad, right now its the storm before the calm.

BUT if Levy doesn't invest then sure jose will throw his toys and our results will suffer.

Apart from us and liverpool no-one has signed anyone of note yet, Jan is a tricky window and usually goes down to the last few weeks as many moving parts in such a short chaotic window.

Lol at your username me and my work mates bang on about this all the time.

No matter what happens for the rest of the season we should have tried as hard as we could to have replacements sorted for Jan and Eriksen this window. You could argue the club view Sessegnon as Rose's replacement. As well as that we should have been backing Kane up effectively when we were selling Janssen and letting Llorente go. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see we are flogging Kane to death every year and that injury is inevitable. He's had semi long term injuries in at least 3 of the last 4 seasons now. Letting Llorente go and not replacing him was a big mistake in the summer as was not adding defensive depth at RB. The problems we have now come from not investing adequately over a number of windows. It's not just the manager change but a total lack of foresight regarding the contract status of senior players and placing money (Dembele, Llorente and Vorm) over having squad depth.

If nothing else I hope this season is a watermark for what happens when you neglect the playing squad over a number of windows and stop doing what we have done best from about 2014 -2017. Either way if Mourinho isn't backed properly to do the job he proved he can there is nowhere to hide for Levy and ENIC.