How do we compete currently? (1st XI vs top 6)

[SFCS]

Do people actually think ozil is all that. I think he's gash. Such a lazy player.

I think he's world class but Wenger gets very little out of him because he doesn't play him to his strengths. He's a bit like VDV, he's at his best when he's allowed to concentrate his game on getting the ball in and around the area, where he's lethal. First season Wenger had him chasing back and coming to deep to get the ball, second season he pushed him out to the wings. As Arsenal have other players that are very good at number 10 it doesn't affect their performance too much but it's a bit of a waste of such a classy footballer.

 

[barry]

I think he's world class but Wenger gets very little out of him because he doesn't play him to his strengths. He's a bit like VDV, he's at his best when he's allowed to concentrate his game on getting the ball in and around the area, where he's lethal. First season Wenger had him chasing back and coming to deep to get the ball, second season he pushed him out to the wings. As Arsenal have other players that are very good at number 10 it doesn't affect their performance too much but it's a bit of a waste of such a classy footballer.

I used to love him and when he came to arsenal I thought he would be the final piece for a title tilt. He's been so disappointing. Statistically he's good, so a lot of my arsenal friends tell me, but I've watched him a few times and to say he's been underwhelming is an understatement. Hides when playing decent oppos, weak, looks lazy (Statistically he isn't supposedly). I'm happy he's been bad but there's a part of me who likes seeing magical players do their thing. I can't think of one game which made me think wow.
I take your point about position but still, I can't think of one match where he's been the man.

 

[ILS]

I appreciate the sentiment of the original post and rather than slating it, I would say that it's post like this that are the bread and butter of a forum. They should spark reasoned, lively debate, not abuse.

I think the OP has tried to come up with a method of comparison, for me though, bundling in a position by position comparison where teams play in different styles and square pegs are shoehorned into round holes doesn't work. Also, the subjective ranking of players is again just that, subjective. In my opinion, whilst not getting enough game time, Willian is a fantastic, hard working player who probably suits other positions better and is not really comparable to any on the list for LWF.

The point of my post is that I like posts like the OP's, because whether you agree with them or not, they are what forums were made for....to spark debate amongst like minded people. So credit where credit is due.

Never seen Darmian play but have seen Frimino a few times and I think he'll do very well.

By the way, you do realise that this is all just guess work for a bit of fun and I haven't performed any sort of physical or statistical anaylsis to back up my scores.

Also can somebody explain to me why Trippier is all of a sudden in front of Walker? The bloke with the highest amout of cross....yawn! Seriously he will need to be bloody Beckham to pick out our one body in the box.

 

[SugarRay]

More to do with Walker being atrocious last season than anything else! Although from what I gather, Trippier was good himself.

I think overall we clearly have the 6th best squad out of the top 6 clubs.

 

[SugarRay]

I think Ozil has struggled it's the comedown of leaving Real. Some players might react negatively to leaving the very top and dropping down a level whereas some see it as an opportunity for them to prove themselves ( Sanchez falls into this category unfortunately! )

Ozil seems like a whinge bag who is feeling a bit sorry for himself.

 

[SFCS]

I used to love him and when he came to arsenal I thought he would be the final piece for a title tilt. He's been so disappointing. Statistically he's good, so a lot of my arsenal friends tell me, but I've watched him a few times and to say he's been underwhelming is an understatement. Hides when playing decent oppos, weak, looks lazy (Statistically he isn't supposedly). I'm happy he's been bad but there's a part of me who likes seeing magical players do their thing. I can't think of one game which made me think wow.
I take your point about position but still, I can't think of one match where he's been the man.

He seems to benefit when Arsenal start quickening up their play, usually towards the end of the season. Wenger always seems to set Arsenal up to keep the ball and not take too many risks in their passing and then bins it at the business end of the season and gets them playing with more pace. Ozil needs space and runners so if you build up too slowly you miss out on the best area of his game, especially when he's often already being played out of position.

When Ozil was signed it seemed like it was for the fans' sakes as they already had Cazorla who looked very good in a similar role. It still seems like that to me, he just isn't given the right set up at Arsenal. Samething happened to Berbatov at United, Fabregas at Barca, Ballack at Chelsea, Bale at Madrid(second season anyway) and I'm sure there are plenty of other examples of great players who make a big move but just don't fit in.

 

[lukespurs7]

no offense intended, but this thread just reinforces my belief that we tend to overrate our own players. Danny Rose being the best left-back in the league, for instance, or Eriksen being better than Ozil and Mata.

I personally think we're going to be way off top 4 pace this season. maybe not points-wise at the end of the season, but I don't believe we'll be in realistic contention at any point. unless something significant occurs in the next few weeks, our squad really doesn't look that good in comparison to the others.

I agree that we do tend to do that which is why I was interested to get views so thanks. Although on Rose who do you actually think on that list was better than him last year? And Eriksen got more goals and assists than Mata and Ozil last year + alot of his goals were match winners and without his 2x goals vs Sheff Utd we'd not have got to a cup final so for me Ozil and Mata didn't perform as well last year. If you're looking at overall proven quality yes they've probably shown that more often and at a higher level (Ozil at Madrid and Mata at Chelsea) but based on current form I think Eriksen is right up there to be honest, do you not?

 

[lukespurs7]

Mata and ozil went hiding?? What the hell did eriksen do?

Your original post is deluded and the bit about Rose being best left back....really?

We are a just above average premiership side who struggles in the later rounds of the Europa league every season so trust me apart from Hugo you are seriously over rating the majority of our players apart from Lamela which is spot on.

Eriksen got more goals and assists than both of them last season and scored far more match winning goals as well as helping us to a cup final, yes he tailed off towards the end of the season but overall last season I would argue he provided more did he not? Also if i'm 'deluded' then who of the LB's mentioned do you think were better than Rose last season and how many?

Perhaps I'm over-rating a few of them say the CB's but who else have I actually rated that highly? CM's I said were 4th and 6th and ST's 5th so hardly rating them really highly. Please continue....

 

[lukespurs7]

Nice post, but some of the rankings are a bit skewed because the positions don't all match as others have said.

That said, it's a good call and does show where we probably all know we need to strengthen. DM, CF and a ideally 2 wide men would be ideal. I think Lamela could still come good, and Erikson could become more consistent.

I think Trippier might also surprise a lot of people this year, he shone in a struggling team last year, and his crossing stats were immense. Makes me wonder how good Kane and hopefully Llorente will look with decent service from wide men and Trippier and Rose.

All in all, if we strengthen a bit more, I do think the top 4 is realistic this year, especially with a lot of the dead wood going, should help the team spirit, something which has helped sides like Bournemouth, Soton and Burnley punch above their weight in the past few seasons.

COYS!

Agreed.

 

[lukespurs7]

Genuine lol from me

Erm read the whole post ya B******

 

[lukespurs7]

I also have a lot of time on my hands today.

Top 6 1st XI Comparison:

GK:
Lloris 1
Hart 1
De Gea 1
Courtious 1
Cech 1
Mignolet 2

RB:
Ivanovic 1
Zabaleta 2
Clyne 3
Bellerin 3
Tripper 4
Darmian 4 * unknown in PL

CB pairings:
Terry & Cahill 1
Kompany & Demichelis 2
Mertsrsacker & Koscielney 3
Skrtel & Sakho 4
Vertongthen & Alderwield 4
Rojo & Smalling 5

LB:
Azpiliqueta 1
Clichy 2
Monreal 3
Rose 3
Shaw 4
Moreno 4

CM1:
Matic 1
Schniederlin 2
Bentaleb 3
Fernandinho 3
Milner 4
Coquelin 4

CM2:
Fabregas 1
Toure 1
Schweinsteiger 2
Ramsey 3
Henderson 4
Mason 5

LWF:
Hazard 1
Sanchez 1
Sterling 2
Depay 3
Lallana 4
Chadli 4

CAM:
Silva 1
Mata 2
Firmino 3
Ozil 4
Eriksen 4
Oscar 4

RWF:
Cazorla 1
Di Maria 2
Willian 3
Navas 3
Coutinho 4
Lamela 5

ST:
Ageuro 1
Costa 2
Rooney 2
Sturridge 2
Kane 2
Giroud 2

Overall ratings: (lowest is best)
Back 5:
1st Chelsea 4
2nd Man City 7
3rd Arsenal 10
4th Tottenham 12
5th Liverpool 13
6th Man Utd 14

Midfield:
1st Chelsea 10
2nd Man City 10
3rd Man Utd 11
4th Arsenal 13
5th Liverpool 19
6th Tottenham 21

OVERALL 1st XI:
1st: Chelsea 16
2nd: Man City 19
3rd: Arsenal 25
4th: Man Utd 27
5th: Liverpool 34
6th: Tottenham 35

Good assessment to be fair.
Where do you think is most important for us to improve to try and bridge the gap.

Alot depends on how well these youngesters do this year e.g. Rose,Mason,Tripper,Bentaleb,Lamela,Kane
If they all have stinking seasons we could end up mid table, if they all hit top form we could have a very very good season indeed.

 

[cliff jones]

Great post and especially agree with the giving the ball away in the final 3rd!!! Lamela was especially guilty of this earlier in the season as are Eriksen and Chadli and our CM's at times. This leads to us needs to do far more defending that we should need to, something CHELSEA are extremely good at limiting.

Do you think this is an individual
Issue or down to the balance of the team,tactics and way we're set-up?

combo of the two unfortunately, inconsistency in decision making poor technique, then players in poor positions to defend turnovers especially the fbs.

 

[ebzrascal]

i think you need to add some other elements like manager depth of squad and Balance of the Squad.

Quality of Manager

Mourinho
Van Gaal
Wenger
Pellegrini
Rogers
Pochetinho

Squad Depth

Man City
Chelsea
Man United
Arsenal
Liverpool
Spurs

Balance of the Squad

Chelsea
Man City
Arsenal
Man United
Liverpool
Spurs

 

[lukespurs7]

With a few weeks to go until the start of the season I wanted to see how our 1st XI Is shaping up against the other top5. I know there will be more signings which may effect the below and also some players aren't in the right positions but the below is a rough guess based on each of the top 6's strongest XI's.

While other factors should obviously be considered such as how well these players work as a team, the strength of each manager and experience of each squad as well as the strength in depth it does give us a good indication of where we are perhaps a bit weak still.

Many of the other top teams have had years of spending big bucks and paying big wages to big name players who we couldn't attract or afford so hopefully our new strategy based on youth can do its best to bridge that quality gap in time without having to spend hundreds of millions.

Top6 1st XI Comparison:

GK:
Courtious 1
De Gea 2
Lloris 3
Hart 4
Cech 5
Mignolet 6

We compete well here and on their day the top 5 on this list are pretty similar.

RB:
Ivanovic 1
Zabaleta 2
Clyne 3
Monreal 4
Tripper 5
Darmian 6 * unknown in PL

Hard to call this one as Darmain is unknown and if Tripper steps up he could be a top top player but realistically we will be slightly lacking in this area vs say Clyne Ivanovic and Zabaleta for example.

CB pairings:
Terry & Cahill 1
Mertsrsacker & Koscielney 2
Vertongthen & Alderwield 3
Kompany & Mangala 4
Rojo & Smalling 5
Skrtel & Lovren 6

Again this is hard to predict but hopefully Jan and Toby can use their experience at Ajax and with Belgium to form a solid partnership, based on their experience together and attributes I would say we should compete well here and Toby was a very astute and much needed quality signing in this area.

LB:
Rose 1
Azpiliqueta 2
Shaw 3
Kolarov 4
Bellerin 5
Monreo 6

Some may disagree but I genuinely think we have the best LB in the league which considering some of the abuse Rose got a few seasons ago is a credit to him and Potch, for me none of the others mentioned were as consistent as him last year except perhaps Aspilelequeta or whatever his name is but arguably he had far less to do that Rose who for me was outstanding pretty much every game I saw.

CM1:
Fabregas 1
Ramsey 2
Toure 3
Bentaleb 4
Blind 5
Henderson 6

Don't think we compete too badly here as Bentaleb is young and is an incredible talent, Toure is ageing and only really Cesc and Ramsey would be firmly ahead of him for me. Hard to compare as all quite different players.

CM2:
Matic 1
Milner 2
Schniderlin 3
Fernandiniho 4
Coquelin 5
Mason 6

As much as I like Mason and think it's great to promote youth and that he had a fantastic break through season for me he is a level below the 5 above and this makes a huge difference. Imagine if we swapped him for Modric in this list we'd go from 6th to 1/2nd. So either we give Mason one more season to see if we can continue to improve OR we sign a CM of real quality which is what I hope we do and let Mason and Ali develop alongside this player and Bentaleb.

RWF:
Hazard 1
Sanchez 2
Sterling 3
Schweinstiger 4
Ferminiho 5
Lamela 6

This is where we really lack, and again it's a tale of 2 choices, do we let Lamela have another season as he does show a lot of promise especially towards the end of last season and hope he can score more goals and be more of a constant threat,if not we need to sign a new player in this position as we are way behind and it hurts us. We shall see, again Potchs call...

CAM:
Silva 1
Coutiniho 2
Eriksen 3
Ozil 4
Mata 5
Oscar 6

Some quality players here, if Eriksen was more consistent he'd be world class but apart from Silva Id not personally swap him for any of the others.

LWF:
Walcott 1
Navas 2
Depay 3
Chadli 4
Willian 5
Lallana 6

I'm not Chadlis biggest fan and never have been but he proves me wrong each season and most games he comes up with the goods + he's had a tough time off the field last year. He scored 10 goals and while he's MABYE not as exciting and pacey as some of the others here, he certainly offers a real threat and seems to pop up with goals at crucial times. Again could do with being more consistent but certainly making that LWF spot his own and no immediate need for us to improve here if he can keep up and even improve his current form.

ST:
Ageuro 1
Costa 2
Rooney 3
Sturridge 4
Kane 5
Giroud 6

Some may put Kane above Rooney and Sturridge based on last season but not for me. Both of them have proven themselves on a longer basis. IF and it's a fairly big if Kane can come close to his form last year and stay fit we'll have a great player on our hands and it's so sweet he's English and one of our own however I think as many people have pointed out he's not an unknown in his 2nd season so it'll be much tougher. For me we need to sell Soldado and Ade and bring in one striker of real quality and experience who will fight with Kane for the n.o1 spot but primarily will be used as a sub and in other competitions.
If he's happy with that Llorente would seem ideal and perhaps be someone Kane can actually learn from and continue his development with + if Kane goes off the boil or gets injured for any length of time which are both more than likely then it is imperative we have someone of real quality who can adequately fill his boots.

Overall ratings: (lowest is best)
Defence:
1st CHELSEA 5
2nd Tottenham 12
3rd Man.City 14
4th/5th Man.U / Arsenal 16
6th Liverpool 21

Some may disagree with this but on an individual basis I actually think with the new signings and keeping Lloris we compete very well here, but we shall see.

Midfield:
1st Man.City 13
2nd/3rd Chelsea/Arsenal 14
4th Man.U 20
5th Liverpool 21
6th Tottenham 23

CM and RWF let us down hugely here and either Mason and Lamela need to step up or we need to replace them otherwise this will cost us.

Strikers:
1st Man.City 1
2nd Chelsea 2
3rd Man.U 3
4th Liverpool 4
5th Tottenham 5
6th Arsenal 6

We need a back-up for Kane of real quality otherwise we're screwed.

OVERALL 1st XI:
1st: Chelsea 21
2nd: Man.City 28
3rd: Arsenal 36
4th: Tottenham 38
5th: Man.U 39
6th: Liverpool 46

So by my reckoning we have around the 4th strongest squad and if we address CM/RWF And back-up ST positions then with our current crop of talented youngsters I'm optimistic we will compete well this season.

I still anticipate we will come 5th but you never know and hopefully we can win a trophy this year!!

Thoughts on this? Agree/disagree? Where are our strengths and weaknesses and what other factors would you consider in how well we may compete this coming season.

COYS!!

How 9 of you have given WTF's is beyond me. Is the the above really that off the mark, I really don't think so. I don't give a s*** about ratings but mabye disagree would've been more appropriate and then write your opinion not just WTF which makes no sense at all.

 

[kitchen]

He seems to benefit when Arsenal start quickening up their play, usually towards the end of the season. Wenger always seems to set Arsenal up to keep the ball and not take too many risks in their passing and then bins it at the business end of the season and gets them playing with more pace. Ozil needs space and runners so if you build up too slowly you miss out on the best area of his game, especially when he's often already being played out of position.

When Ozil was signed it seemed like it was for the fans' sakes as they already had Cazorla who looked very good in a similar role. It still seems like that to me, he just isn't given the right set up at Arsenal. Samething happened to Berbatov at United, Fabregas at Barca, Ballack at Chelsea, Bale at Madrid(second season anyway) and I'm sure there are plenty of other examples of great players who make a big move but just don't fit in.

Part of that was down to Walcott coming back from injury at the end of last season. Ozil is a great passer but players need to make runs for him to find them. Walcott remains the best off-ball runner at Arsenal along with Sanchez (although Walcott's runs might be even better) and despite his flaws offers great team balance for them. He usually takes a while to get back from injury but when he's fit they're a better team for it IMO.

This is why we need that pace so much. Teams are made of combinations of players. Runners and passers. If we get that pace to compliment kane. We'll no doubt see others like Eriksen, bentaleb and lamela benefit too.

 

[kitchen]

no offense intended, but this thread just reinforces my belief that we tend to overrate our own players. Danny Rose being the best left-back in the league, for instance, or Eriksen being better than Ozil and Mata.

I personally think we're going to be way off top 4 pace this season. maybe not points-wise at the end of the season, but I don't believe we'll be in realistic contention at any point. unless something significant occurs in the next few weeks, our squad really doesn't look that good in comparison to the others.

Agree. We're considerably weaker than the 4 above us and if Liverpool keep sturridge fit and adequately replace sterling they'll be pushing us too. Pochettino gets us over achieving by focusing on team ethic rather than original brilliance but we still leak goals for fun and struggle to create chances against packed defenses.

Potential purchase of players like Mccarthy do little to improve our team in terms of individual quality. He just doesn't strike me as a top 4 player. Whilst utd sign the likes of Schweinsteiger...

 

[HtownHotspur]

i think you need to add some other elements like manager depth of squad and Balance of the Squad.

Quality of Manager

Mourinho
Van Gaal
Wenger
Pellegrini
Rogers
Pochetinho

Squad Depth

Man City
Chelsea
Man United
Arsenal
Liverpool
Spurs

Balance of the Squad

Chelsea
Man City
Arsenal
Man United
Liverpool
Spurs

Poche under Rodgers, City more balanced than Arse, and City depth over Chelsea are all arguable, rest is on for me.

 

[jezz]

We came 5th last season.
Doesn't that equate to the 5th best squad?
How people rate players who never kicked a ball in the EPL above players who have is beyond me.

 

[InOffMeLeftShin]

Um...

 

[Larryjanta]

Unbelievable the amount of WTF rating you got, was expecting this to be a crazy thread (and have been avoiding it based on the WTF guide). Really interesting analysis and I don't make you too far off. What it shows to me is that we really need everyone at their full potential to have a chance of top 4. Thanks for laying it all out though.