Harry Winks - Leicester City

[brendanb50]

I respect your opinion and I hope he can surprise me. I just haven't seen him do anything that would suggest he is better with a slightly more attacking role. Rarely see him make effective forward passes to link play, poor when dribbling with the ball, no goal scoring threat. Personally I feel his best role is as a deeper midfielder, he just needs to be smarter with his positioning/decisions. He sells himself far too often as he's too eager to win the ball (a blessing and a curse)

Also I would say that we were poor with the ball for Poch's last year and a half. Nobody has been able to control the midfield since King Dembele left.

We will see what happens over the next year, I hope I can come back to this and admit you were right!

Well put from my perspective.

He did have some very good stats for forward passing in the oppo 3rd at one point but you're right he doesn't show enough on the ball in terms of vision, control or goal threat to be a more advanced player.

As homegrown, he's not going anywhere anyway and we have several other players who will be shipped before him but your post touches upon the crux of the issue with Winks - Where is he best deployed? What does he do best? What sort of midfield does he have alongside him to maximise our play? It's all a bit unclear in my view but i think that's what the club and he need to focus on this year: What's his role and how is he going to add the most to the team performance?

 

[BringBack_leGin]

At our best under both Redknapp and Pochettino every player in our best xi you could argue would make every other side in the league.

Unless he massively kicks on, this is why Winks should be a squad player.

 

[Havre]

At our best under both Redknapp and Pochettino every player in our best xi you could argue would make every other side in the league.

Unless he massively kicks on, this is why Winks should be a squad player.

You would think such teams would line up trophies then?

I doubt Winks will ever be a super star CM in the PL, but I really don't think he is any worse than Fred, Kovacic, Fred etc. And arguably guys like Henderson, but Liverpool players are a bit more difficult to evaluate as the system clearly fits guys like Henderson and Milner before perfectly. Making them probably look better than they individually are. Don´t think Winks have had that same "luxury" at Spurs yet. Mourinho seems to be taking him in the right direction though. I think we could see a new Winks with Højbjerg or N´Dombele and less Sissoko.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

You would think such teams would line up trophies then?

I doubt Winks will ever be a super star CM in the PL, but I really don't think he is any worse than Fred, Kovacic, Fred etc. And arguably guys like Henderson, but Liverpool players are a bit more difficult to evaluate as the system clearly fits guys like Henderson and Milner before perfectly. Making them probably look better than they individually are. Don´t think Winks have had that same "luxury" at Spurs yet. Mourinho seems to be taking him in the right direction though. I think we could see a new Winks with Højbjerg or N´Dombele and less Sissoko.

I totally agree he’s better than those players, but I also can’t see Utd or Chelsea challenging for the title big Fred and Kovacic are first choice players. Sadly, Mctominay, Pogba and Fernandes is potentially a strong midfield.

 

[Spurs' Pipe Dreams]

Well with Højbjerg playing as a DM today and Winks being free to add to the attack, he played significantly better than he did whilst having to cover DM, who'd have thunk...

 

[Snarfalicious]

Well with Højbjerg playing as a DM today and Winks being free to add to the attack, he played significantly better than he did whilst having to cover DM, who'd have thunk...

I would be absolutely fine with seeing what he can do for a year in that role. Now is probably not the smart time to sell him, he’s still got a lengthy contract and unless he gets injured/never plays (unlikely on the latter) he won’t lose a ton of value. Problem is he’s probably going to be asked to play a more defensive role if PEH needs a breather unless we sign another DM type.

 

[glacierSpurs]

People seemingly have this ideology in their head that since we bought PEH all he's gonna do is sit and protect the back four and let everyone else roam, it rarely works like that in modern football, especially deploying a double pivot - we'd become entirely predictable when we attack for example. I do expect our midfield to be more solid now though with PEH being able to read the game better and win the ball higher up the pitch thus allow our other midfielder to focus on their jobs in hand.

Bringing this into Winksy thread from the Ipswich pre-season thread for the suitability.

The ideology that was mentioned was exactly what many were expecting when Hojbjerg was bought. Looked through the past 10-15 pages here and you will find how many would think Winks will be better with Hojbjerg playing behind him. Essentially your point is disagreeing with what those many people are hoping.

I personally don't think our attack will be predictable with Hojbjerg consistently behind Winks. Not like other teams wouldn't know, supposedly, that Hojbjerg should be far more defensive than Winks. Our attack, theoretically starts from GLC/Dele and the wings, sometimes even from Toby. If Winks is the one who starts the attack, that is the unpredictability and X-factor I so wish he could fulfill. The predictability comes from him NOT doing that and playing the sideway and back passes. And that is the issue, especially now after Hojbjerg is bought, where he is supposed to link the ball further up to players like GLC/Dele and initiate the attack already rather than relying so much on them.

Even if, Hojbjerg and Winks are playing the double pivot, the suitability will be so low, because one of the double-pivot has to be so so good at carrying the ball and bringing it out of danger. Neither Winks nor Hojbjerg is good at that - because only our reverend Dembele could do that so well, and that was why it was so successful with him playing with either Dier or Wanyama.

I agree to your point being our midfield will be more solid because Hojbjerg is "able to read the game better and win the ball higher up the pitch thus allow our other midfielder to focus on their jobs in hand." However in this scenario, we are back to the issue of Winks being so deep that, on offensive, he couldn't pass forward enough. On defensive, he is not the ideal player to be in front of the back four.

 

[Timberwolf]

Well with Højbjerg playing as a DM today and Winks being free to add to the attack, he played significantly better than he did whilst having to cover DM, who'd have thunk...

Hojbjerg wasn't a DM yesterday - the two of them were dovetailing as a pair, pretty much exactly like Winks and Sissoko did last season. Winks was actually playing deeper than Hojbjerg a lot of the time and wasn't really adding to the attack any more than usual while Hojbjerg was the one getting forward more (hence his involvement in the 2nd goal).

That said, having someone alongside (if not behind) him who actually has good awareness, tracks runs and is a capable passer, definitely frees up Winks and I'm sure that's part of the reason he looked good yesterday.

However, if yesterday is anything to go by, Winks will still be playing a similar role to last season and Hojbjerg won't be the sitting midfielder like a lot of us assumed. Not every game anyway.

 

[Spurs' Pipe Dreams]

He was actually playing deeper than Hojbjerg a lot of the time. He also wasn't really adding to the attack any more than usual and Hojbjerg was the one getting forward more (hence his involvement in the 2nd goal).

That said, having someone alongside (if not behind) him who actually has good awareness, tracks runs and is a capable passer, definitely frees up Winks and I'm sure that's part of the reason he looked good yesterday.

However, if yesterday is anything to go by, Winks will still be playing a similar role to last season and Hojbjerg won't be the sitting midfielder like a lot of us assumed. Not every game anyway.

The opposition meant that Hojbjerg went forward more than he normally would do but Dele and Winks were both definitely more advanced than him, with Dele being more advanced on the right, Winks being less advanced and on the left, the link-ups between Sess and Winks, showed how much further up the field Winks was. We were playing an inverted 3 in the middle, against better opposition it will be more obvious but that's what I saw. Admittedly the stream wasn't the best quality but Hojbjerg was definitely the central player

 

[Japhet]

Hojbjerg wasn't a DM yesterday - the two of them were dovetailing as a pair, pretty much exactly like Winks and Sissoko did last season. Winks was actually playing deeper than Hojbjerg a lot of the time and wasn't really adding to the attack any more than usual while Hojbjerg was the one getting forward more (hence his involvement in the 2nd goal).

That said, having someone alongside (if not behind) him who actually has good awareness, tracks runs and is a capable passer, definitely frees up Winks and I'm sure that's part of the reason he looked good yesterday.

However, if yesterday is anything to go by, Winks will still be playing a similar role to last season and Hojbjerg won't be the sitting midfielder like a lot of us assumed. Not every game anyway.

Pre-season is the ideal time to experiment with this sort of stuff and Gedson at RB. I think Hojbjerg will probably sit deeper against stronger opposition myself.

 

[Timberwolf]

The opposition meant that Hojbjerg went forward more than he normally would do but Dele and Winks were both definitely more advanced than him, with Dele being more advanced on the right, Winks being less advanced and on the left, the link-ups between Sess and Winks, showed how much further up the field Winks was. We were playing an inverted 3 in the middle, against better opposition it will be more obvious but that's what I saw. Admittedly the stream wasn't the best quality but Hojbjerg was definitely the central player

I wasnt really paying attention in the 2nd half but in the 1st it looked to me like a 3-4-3/3-4-1-2 with very high wing backs and Winks and Hojbjerg very much as a double pivot. Winks appeared to be the deeper of the two the majority of the time, playing his typical metronomic role picking the ball up from the centre backs and knitting things together. Dele was floating all over the place while Hojbjerg was actually a bit more of a box-to-box, albeit with a lot of defensive awareness and tracking runs/dropping deep when required. Definitely not a DM though.

 

[Timberwolf]

Pre-season is the ideal time to experiment with this sort of stuff and Gedson at RB. I think Hojbjerg will probably sit deeper against stronger opposition myself.

Agreed. I have no doubt Hojbjerg will play as a more of a typical 6 in plenty of games next season, especially if we want to fit Ndombele into the side or pair him with Lo Celso.

 

[Albertbarich]

I really think to labour my previous points that to get the best of winks we have to play him in a 3.

In a double pivot you either have to have two exceptional all rounders or two ultra defensive players. Holjberg, winks and sissoko are neither.

At home against weaker teams I could see holjberg holding as lo celso and n'dombele bomb forward but in big games where we are against strong teams winks could come in and do a good all round job . Linking the play, keeping the ball and working hard.

If were going to stick with a 4231 then that leaves dele or lo celso in the hole and on recent evidence neither are productive enough to have main responsibility for our attacking play.

 

[Timberwolf]

I really think to labour my previous points that to get the best of winks we have to play him in a 3.

In a double pivot you either have to have two exceptional all rounders or two ultra defensive players. Holjberg, winks and sissoko are neither.

At home against weaker teams I could see holjberg holding as lo celso and n'dombele bomb forward but in big games where we are against strong teams winks could come in and do a good all round job . Linking the play, keeping the ball and working hard.

If were going to stick with a 4231 then that leaves dele or lo celso in the hole and on recent evidence neither are productive enough to have main responsibility for our attacking play.

I think he can do a job in a double pivot against a certain type of opposition. I've criticised Winks on here but his calmness in possession and passing accuracy are valuable, even if he does play it safe a lot. However, in general I agree: he's not dynamic enough to truly excel either defensively or offensively in a double pivot and his best position would be as the link man in a 3.

I hope Jose experiments with some other team shapes over the coming games. Would like to see how we look playing a 4-3-3 when Lo Celso and Kane are back.

 

[Spurs' Pipe Dreams]

I wasnt really paying attention in the 2nd half but in the 1st it looked to me like a 3-4-3/3-4-1-2 with very high wing backs and Winks and Hojbjerg very much as a double pivot. Winks appeared to be the deeper of the two the majority of the time, playing his typical metronomic role picking the ball up from the centre backs and knitting things together. Dele was floating all over the place while Hojbjerg was actually a bit more of a box-to-box, albeit with a lot of defensive awareness and tracking runs/dropping deep when required. Definitely not a DM though.

Gedson was playing RB, Toby and Foyth CD and Davies LB, it was a flat back 4. There's no way it was 3 at the back as Davies was up and down the left-wing linking up with Sess and Winks, your LCB doesn't do that if you're playing 3 at the back. The formation didn't really change in the 2nd half when the back 4 became Cirkin, Toby, CCV and Gedson, unless you're saying Cirkin was playing as a LCD?

 

[arunspurs]

Gedson was playing RB, Toby and Foyth CD and Davies LB, it was a flat back 4. There's no way it was 3 at the back as Davies was up and down the left-wing linking up with Sess and Winks, your LCB doesn't do that if you're playing 3 at the back. The formation didn't really change in the 2nd half when the back 4 became Cirkin, Toby, CCV and Gedson, unless you're saying Cirkin was playing as a LCD?

We played back3 in possession (3-4-1-2) and back4 out of possession.
On attack, Toby, Davies, Foyth held back. Sess played LWB , Gedson RWB, Winks - Hojbjerg double pivot. When we lost the ball, Hojbjerg broke out of formation, went chasing to win the ball high up with Winks staying in position. If & when Ipswich came forward, our formation changed to flat back 4 with a 4-4-2

 

[Spurs' Pipe Dreams]

We played back3 in possession (3-4-1-2) and back4 out of possession.
On attack, Toby, Davies, Foyth held back. Sess played LWB , Gedson RWB, Winks - Hojbjerg double pivot. When we lost the ball, Hojbjerg broke out of formation, went chasing to win the ball high up with Winks staying in position. If & when Ipswich came forward, our formation changed to flat back 4 with a 4-4-2

There is absolutely no way Sess was playing as a WB yesterday, neither in attack nor defence

 

[arunspurs]

There is absolutely no way Sess was playing as a WB yesterday, neither in attack nor defence

As I said, he didn't defend like WB, because we transformed to a back 4 on defense

 

[Spurs' Pipe Dreams]

As I said, he didn't defend like WB, because we transformed to a back 4 on defense

He didn't on attack either, so...either we were playing a back 4 or? I mean we are either in attack or defence and he wasn't playing as a WB for either, surely that disproves your assertion we were playing a back 3 at any time?

Davies was a more withdrawn LB than Gedson granted but he was playing as a LB, he still joined attacks down the LW which a LCB doesn't do. Although, given the quality of the opposition they may get more advanced. Let's see what happens over the next few games

 

[Timberwolf]

Gedson was playing RB, Toby and Foyth CD and Davies LB, it was a flat back 4. There's no way it was 3 at the back as Davies was up and down the left-wing linking up with Sess and Winks, your LCB doesn't do that if you're playing 3 at the back. The formation didn't really change in the 2nd half when the back 4 became Cirkin, Toby, CCV and Gedson, unless you're saying Cirkin was playing as a LCD?

Let's agree to disagree. I suppose you could argue it was a very lopsided back 4 but Davies was often tucking in much closer to Toby than he normally would while Gedson was practically a winger - far higher than Aurier normally plays. People were arguing about this exact same thing in the match thread so clearly people saw it differently, but certainly looked like, at the very least, a hybrid of the two formations and Gedson was definitely more of a RWB than a RB for most of the game.

Edit: just realised @arunspurs summed it up really well.