raymundo-iow
Well-Known Member
- Jan 6, 2011
- 415
- 530
But the quality in front of them. Which we couldn't match in those games
3 at the back
- Thread starter Colonel_Klinck
- Start date
double0
Well-Known Member
- Aug 29, 2006
- 14,423
- 12,258
I would like us to back to 4231 and modify it dependent on games.
I cant think of a better system (4231) that is as flexible, it can easily transform to three at the back with the CB pushing wide and one of the 2 midfield players dropping into the back line and full back pushed up...it can also became a diamond and a 433.
I cant think of a better system (4231) that is as flexible, it can easily transform to three at the back with the CB pushing wide and one of the 2 midfield players dropping into the back line and full back pushed up...it can also became a diamond and a 433.
whitesocks
The past means nothing. This is a message for life
- Jan 16, 2014
- 4,652
- 5,738
When we are in possession we can't have 3CBs marking 1 striker - we'd be outnumbered in the rest of the areas.
Someone has to venture forward and act as a pivot/extra body in midfield.
Last season that man was Dier and I thought he played some crisp passes between the lines - to Eriksen usually.
However, without Aderweireld, Dier has to stay back as the only RCB.
Wanyama is not a defender - he isn't tall enough and you don't need someone who likes to foul in our box really, so that leaves Wimmer as the central man. But good as he is as a CB, I've not seen anything that makes me think he can do much more than clatter them in midfield.
We have Vertonghen who has the skill to step up....
And in the early days - OK perhaps playing more as a LB - he would often cut in and run through the lot - sometimes with a superman impression to finish up. It is a bit of a mystery because he just does not venture up anymore, deferring to his partner every time - even to Dawson when he was past his prime. And against arsenal he accidentally got possession quite high up, got spooked, and turned and ran all the way back with the ball. It was not a pretty sight.
So it worked against the arse who attacked, but it would not work imo - with these players - against a side that would sit back.
Someone has to venture forward and act as a pivot/extra body in midfield.
Last season that man was Dier and I thought he played some crisp passes between the lines - to Eriksen usually.
However, without Aderweireld, Dier has to stay back as the only RCB.
Wanyama is not a defender - he isn't tall enough and you don't need someone who likes to foul in our box really, so that leaves Wimmer as the central man. But good as he is as a CB, I've not seen anything that makes me think he can do much more than clatter them in midfield.
We have Vertonghen who has the skill to step up....
And in the early days - OK perhaps playing more as a LB - he would often cut in and run through the lot - sometimes with a superman impression to finish up. It is a bit of a mystery because he just does not venture up anymore, deferring to his partner every time - even to Dawson when he was past his prime. And against arsenal he accidentally got possession quite high up, got spooked, and turned and ran all the way back with the ball. It was not a pretty sight.
So it worked against the arse who attacked, but it would not work imo - with these players - against a side that would sit back.
Syn_13
Fly On, Little Wing
- Jul 17, 2008
- 14,852
- 20,661
If we did use a back 3 I'd actually suggest Dier being the one in the centre. Barzagli, Bonucci and Chiellini are the perfect example of how a back 3 works. That's how they always line up from right to left. They'll all have moments where they'll press forward when they're required to support the midfield so as to give the team a bit more of an attacking shape. What you'll notice is only 1 does it at a time, and the other 2 will tighten up like a traditional CB pair.
Toby and Jan are better defensively than Dier, however Dier is fully capable of playing as a holding midfielder. It's very similar to Juve's balance of abilities between their 3. Bonucci is still excellent defensively, but Chiellini and Barzagli just edge him in terms of defensive positioning and awareness. From his position he can push forward and support the midfield and spray a few passes to the wing backs and runners down the channels. You need the smarter defenders on the outside because they're going to have to be flexible. Chiellini and Barzagli will tighten up if Bonucci pushes up, and will spread out to cover the flanks when he slots back in. If an attack occurs down Juve's left, Chiellini will go out wide, and you'll either see Bonucci and Barzagli shift over while the right wing back tracks back, or Barzagli stays out right and a midfielder slots back in. Plays like Rose, Walker and Wanyama can certainly do this.
Toby and Jan have played full back roles before and are excellent centre backs. I know it was only 1 game, but Dier struggled a bit against Arsenal as the RCB. He didn't know whether he was coming or going when it came to pressing out wide. He had to play him there as Wimmer and Vertonghen are both lefties. Poch played Wimmer as the central CB and Verts on the left because Wimmer is the weakest out of the two and is more likely to struggle adapting to a versatile role. With Toby back in the side I'd expect Poch to put Dier in the middle. If he plays as the central CB then he will get to play a position similar to last season. He'll do the Bonucci role, whilst Toby and Jan have a go at being Barzagli and Chiellini.
Toby and Jan are better defensively than Dier, however Dier is fully capable of playing as a holding midfielder. It's very similar to Juve's balance of abilities between their 3. Bonucci is still excellent defensively, but Chiellini and Barzagli just edge him in terms of defensive positioning and awareness. From his position he can push forward and support the midfield and spray a few passes to the wing backs and runners down the channels. You need the smarter defenders on the outside because they're going to have to be flexible. Chiellini and Barzagli will tighten up if Bonucci pushes up, and will spread out to cover the flanks when he slots back in. If an attack occurs down Juve's left, Chiellini will go out wide, and you'll either see Bonucci and Barzagli shift over while the right wing back tracks back, or Barzagli stays out right and a midfielder slots back in. Plays like Rose, Walker and Wanyama can certainly do this.
Toby and Jan have played full back roles before and are excellent centre backs. I know it was only 1 game, but Dier struggled a bit against Arsenal as the RCB. He didn't know whether he was coming or going when it came to pressing out wide. He had to play him there as Wimmer and Vertonghen are both lefties. Poch played Wimmer as the central CB and Verts on the left because Wimmer is the weakest out of the two and is more likely to struggle adapting to a versatile role. With Toby back in the side I'd expect Poch to put Dier in the middle. If he plays as the central CB then he will get to play a position similar to last season. He'll do the Bonucci role, whilst Toby and Jan have a go at being Barzagli and Chiellini.
Lighty64
I believe
- Aug 24, 2010
- 10,400
- 12,476
I know we have had a great defensive record this season, and the change worked well v the Arscum, but after watching Chelsea demolish Everton, I really hope we don't chance it at SB.
I really hope the XI that played there last season are fit on the day, and go and beat them more than anything for last seasons bruiser.
if we don't come out the traps fast like we did at home v City, and give Hazard a very early early kicking to let him know we aint forgot, then i feel it will definitely be another year of not winning there, though i suppose with 3 at the back Toby can always make sure if he glides past Walker, he will be running into a rock.
just hope with our ground be pretty narrow, Wet Spam don't feel like it's a return to there old ground and close us down as they did when we played in their cup final last season. both our next 2 games we need to come out the blocks fast like we did v City, grab a goal or 2 before they can get any rhythm.
I really hope the XI that played there last season are fit on the day, and go and beat them more than anything for last seasons bruiser.
if we don't come out the traps fast like we did at home v City, and give Hazard a very early early kicking to let him know we aint forgot, then i feel it will definitely be another year of not winning there, though i suppose with 3 at the back Toby can always make sure if he glides past Walker, he will be running into a rock.
just hope with our ground be pretty narrow, Wet Spam don't feel like it's a return to there old ground and close us down as they did when we played in their cup final last season. both our next 2 games we need to come out the blocks fast like we did v City, grab a goal or 2 before they can get any rhythm.
Shadydan
Well-Known Member
- Jul 7, 2012
- 38,247
- 104,143
I think we'd have a higher chance of winning against Chelsea if we matched their formation.
mill
Well-Known Member
- May 21, 2007
- 10,424
- 37,190
Why?
Wait I thought everyone was saying Chelsea will be shaking in their boots and scared to play us because we fouled them a few times and threw away a 2 goal lead
I've never been a big fan of 3 at the back
It worked pretty well against Arsenal but I was still dismissive of the use of it longer term
However - for some time I have been thinking our squad is very unbalanced and while talented it's very difficult to get our best players in the same team and get the best out of everyone and compliment one another
Dele, Erkisen, Lamela all seem at their best to me in a central midfield position, they're 3 of our better players yet really they need to occupy the same space and compete for one spot. To shoe horn them into the same team in a 4=2=3=1 has never quite worked in my opinion
Lamela is effective at RWF and Erkisen can do a job from the left but it's not the right blend and not the best way to utilise our best players I don't think
Perhaps 3 at the back will allow them to play together more effectively - more so when Toby returns as then you have a strong leader in the centre of the 3 with CB's equally capable of playing fullbacks in Verts and Dier (plus Davies can play LCB if needed) to make that back 3 solid enough to really free up our attacking full backs come wing backs and create the width we often lack going forward to create an overlap/extra man and stretch an opposing defense to create chances
With that width provided more from deep the attacking players can focus more on playing their natural game without unbalancing the team. We have so many options to rotate up there too when you include Son, Sissoko, NKD and Janssen (all of which could benefit from the extra freedom to attack the fullbacks may get from having a 3 man defense with wanyama supporting deep also)
I've never been a big fan of 3 at the back
It worked pretty well against Arsenal but I was still dismissive of the use of it longer term
However - for some time I have been thinking our squad is very unbalanced and while talented it's very difficult to get our best players in the same team and get the best out of everyone and compliment one another
Dele, Erkisen, Lamela all seem at their best to me in a central midfield position, they're 3 of our better players yet really they need to occupy the same space and compete for one spot. To shoe horn them into the same team in a 4=2=3=1 has never quite worked in my opinion
Lamela is effective at RWF and Erkisen can do a job from the left but it's not the right blend and not the best way to utilise our best players I don't think
Perhaps 3 at the back will allow them to play together more effectively - more so when Toby returns as then you have a strong leader in the centre of the 3 with CB's equally capable of playing fullbacks in Verts and Dier (plus Davies can play LCB if needed) to make that back 3 solid enough to really free up our attacking full backs come wing backs and create the width we often lack going forward to create an overlap/extra man and stretch an opposing defense to create chances
With that width provided more from deep the attacking players can focus more on playing their natural game without unbalancing the team. We have so many options to rotate up there too when you include Son, Sissoko, NKD and Janssen (all of which could benefit from the extra freedom to attack the fullbacks may get from having a 3 man defense with wanyama supporting deep also)
Last edited:
Shadydan
Well-Known Member
- Jul 7, 2012
- 38,247
- 104,143
Because their wing back system will make our full backs redundant, looked what happened against Dortmund and West Ham last season.
walworthyid
David Ginola
- Oct 25, 2004
- 7,059
- 10,242
What i liked was how well we were able to control them. they are a very good side in very good form playing at home, we went there with injuries to key players and dominated them for long periods.
