Jose Mourinho

[arunspurs]

Amazing how one game can change the tone - 48 hours ago Mourinho was a cancer dragging this club to hell, now we're supposedly ready to challenge at the top again.

Beating Arsenal is always fantastic. I'll admit I didn't expect it at all, and the tactics were spot on. People talk about winning trophies but one thing Mourinho has done more consistently well than pretty much anyone in the business is beat Arsenal. Think it's only two defeats in his entire career against them and one was in the Community Shield - even in the year Chelsea imploded and nearly got relegated he still managed to beat them 2-0.

That being said - in isolation this result does not change anything. It was a great experience on the day, great to have the bragging rights, great to have a buzz around the club again. But as I said before the game - the leopard has four games to change his spots, and unless we turn up in all of the remaining three then I'm still going to be sceptical. Defending deep and compact to soak up the pressure and waiting for an error prone to side to make an inevitable mistake will work in a game like this, but it's not a long term strategy of how the team should play - we're going to come up against much more organised defences than Mustafi and Luiz and we're going to come up against teams that commit far less men forward than Arsenal did. I still saw our players taking too many touches on the ball in attacking positions and making poor decisions in the final third.

It's good to hear him acknowledge that the attacking play still needs work. But actions speak louder than words and I await to see how we now play against Newcastle.

I believe, many are in Pro-Jose camp. They wavered amidst dropping of points at Bournemouth & Sheffield and needed some sort of assurance that there is progress under Jose.

Arsenal match did show us that, if players play to his game plan in big games, results will come. We did the same against United - just that United got a bit of luck going their way with how Dier acted and gave a soft pen.

This season has been such a mess - seems like 2-3 years since we had Poch. In a way, Jose has improved us interms of defense. Had he been luckier with injuries, we would have finished in CL positions. But its not without issues - Sheffield game highlighted the mental weakness players still have. He will need time and change of players.

 

[jay2040]

What is amusing about the Potter thing is that he was an example, like Nagelsmann, of a highly rated, young attack minded coach. Rather than address the point of the post, which was that Mourinho is a bad fit for Spurs, some people have attacked the hypothetical alternative.

I don't want to brand people as morons because they disagree with me but I would like them to address the argument. Mourinho is a bad fit for Spurs, not a bad manager. He would be acceptable for arsenal who have a proud history of intentionally defending to win but not for us.

Nagelsmann has built a very exciting side at Leipzig and is ready to take the next step, Potter has done well with a limited squad, Nuno Santo is also.capable.

If the counter argument is that these guys don't have the cachet to keep Kane etc then Spaletti is free at the moment and he created a brilliant attacking side at Roma.

Are we going to win things with these managers? I don't know but we have as good a chance as any. With Jose, 26 trophy Jose, we don't know. This is the first time apart from man u that he hasn't competed with a squad of the best players in the league. Man U were horrible to watch.

I dont want to brand you a moron but maybe you are not the right fit for a Spurs fan, might be a nice guy and all that!

 

[kremlyn]

Exactly this.

It's almost like we're assuming that he will win something.

Yes he's won 26 trophies but with significantly better resources. He really struggled at Man U who have far deeper pockets.

It's true that if he won the league we wouldn't care how. But let's not pretend that's going to happen because there is absolutely no guarantee or precedent for that.

 

[olliec]

Amazing how one game can change the tone - 48 hours ago Mourinho was a cancer dragging this club to hell, now we're supposedly ready to challenge at the top again.

Beating Arsenal is always fantastic. I'll admit I didn't expect it at all, and the tactics were spot on. People talk about winning trophies but one thing Mourinho has done more consistently well than pretty much anyone in the business is beat Arsenal. Think it's only two defeats in his entire career against them and one was in the Community Shield - even in the year Chelsea imploded and nearly got relegated he still managed to beat them 2-0.

That being said - in isolation this result does not change anything. It was a great experience on the day, great to have the bragging rights, great to have a buzz around the club again. But as I said before the game - the leopard has four games to change his spots, and unless we turn up in all of the remaining three then I'm still going to be sceptical. Defending deep and compact to soak up the pressure and waiting for an error prone to side to make an inevitable mistake will work in a game like this, but it's not a long term strategy of how the team should play - we're going to come up against much more organised defences than Mustafi and Luiz and we're going to come up against teams that commit far less men forward than Arsenal did. I still saw our players taking too many touches on the ball in attacking positions and making poor decisions in the final third.

It's good to hear him acknowledge that the attacking play still needs work. But actions speak louder than words and I await to see how we now play against Newcastle.

This is exactly what I was saying! This thread is literally bipolar.

 

[thekneaf]

It's almost like we're assuming that he will win something.

Yes he's won 26 trophies but with significantly better resources. He really struggled at Man U who have far deeper pockets.

It's true that if he won the league we wouldn't care how. But let's not pretend that's going to happen because there is absolutely no guarantee or precedent for that.

Not presuming anything. But I've read and listened to fans saying they wouldn't even enjoy winning this way.

He's won absolutely everywhere else, now the punt we're taking its he can do it here.

All I'm doing personally is suspending my own views on how the game can be played and seeing if we can win his way. God knows I've enjoyed Poch Spurs at our peak, but I also remember that hollow feeling that we never quite had it in us to win. I'm greedy, I want both together. But I'm willing to accept I've had my nice football, I'll take a trophy as a second separate course.

 

[SUIYHA]

Lampard had scored 21 league goals for Chelsea in 3 seasons, having played all but 1 league game in that time, before Mourinho joined. He scored 40 across the next 3 seasons.

John Terry was 23 when Mourinho took over, well short of a centre backs prime. Ramos was 24, albeit an exceptional talent, but once again, some years short of a centre backs prime.

Mourinho signed Robben as a 20 year old, and Özil as a 21 year old.

It’s massively false to assert that these players didn’t improve under Mourinho, or if they did it was coincidental, considering the regularity with which players produced their best under his management. Ashley Cole, Drogba, Joe Cole, Essien, Sneijder, even Damien Duff, all produces their best for Mourinho.

He may no longer have it in him, but he was 100% an improver of players in his pomp.

Hmmm...not sure about some of these. Lampard was crap for his first two years at Chelsea but had started scoring goals regularly for club and country in Ranieri's final season, think he only scored three more goals in the first year under Mourinho which should be expected when you add so many other good players to play around them. Drogba didn't really perform for his first two seasons under Mourinho which is why they signed Shevchenko to replace him - his best football probably was under Ancelotti. Robben definitely got better after leaving Chelsea. Ashley Cole's year under Mourinho was arguably the worst of his entire career as he tried to turn him into a defensive left-back like Ben Davies and nullified the attacking threat that made him so good. Essien for sure was at his best under Mourinho but also decimated by injuries after Mourinho left so hard to compare. Ozil had just starred in Germany's World Cup run and the Bundesliga season before for a Bremen side that qualified for the Champions League - his career was on a massive upward trajectory at the time.

I think it's only natural that if you manage world class players in their mid-20s then a lot of them will likely get better - many will be world class trainers after all. Yes he improved plenty of players but I think the question mark is to whether he can integrate promising, raw talent that hasn't yet broken into a top side in the way Ferguson, Wenger and even Poch have. I can't think of any players off the top of my head that have become first choice players in successful Mourinho sides that were in the youth team when he arrived or signed as youngsters to blood their way in. In his defence, he has usually been at clubs with an expectation to spend big money and deliver trophies every year without much wiggle room so they are always likely to prioritise an expensive new addition as opposed to letting the likes of De Bruyne and Salah take their time to develop their game. That's not to say he can't do it - but he never has.

 

[Metalhead]

This is exactly what I was saying! This thread is literally bipolar.

This is the long game - it's crazy people getting overexcited about a win and overly pessimistic about a defeat. Good things take time and rushing to a final verdict on Mourinho at this stage makes no sense. We have no idea whether he will succeed or not.

 

[dontcallme]

What is amusing about the Potter thing is that he was an example, like Nagelsmann, of a highly rated, young attack minded coach. Rather than address the point of the post, which was that Mourinho is a bad fit for Spurs, some people have attacked the hypothetical alternative.

I don't want to brand people as morons because they disagree with me but I would like them to address the argument. Mourinho is a bad fit for Spurs, not a bad manager. He would be acceptable for arsenal who have a proud history of intentionally defending to win but not for us.

Nagelsmann has built a very exciting side at Leipzig and is ready to take the next step, Potter has done well with a limited squad, Nuno Santo is also.capable.

If the counter argument is that these guys don't have the cachet to keep Kane etc then Spaletti is free at the moment and he created a brilliant attacking side at Roma.

Are we going to win things with these managers? I don't know but we have as good a chance as any. With Jose, 26 trophy Jose, we don't know. This is the first time apart from man u that he hasn't competed with a squad of the best players in the league. Man U were horrible to watch.

Regarding why I myself am against Potter at this time.

Firstly, he hasn't really achieved anything. He did a good job in Sweden but this is hardly reason for a club the size of ours to be interested. His one season with Swansea in the Championship resulted in a 10th place finish.

He has been with Brighton for one season and outside of steering them just above the relegation zone while playing reasonable football he hasn't done much.

I am not going to write him off but at this stage he has done nothing remotely close to earning a job at a club like ours.

I am old enough to have seen numerous managers having a bright period and looking like the next big thing only to go onto mediocrity.

 

[Metalhead]

Hmmm...not sure about some of these. Lampard was crap for his first two years at Chelsea but had started scoring goals regularly for club and country in Ranieri's final season, think he only scored three more goals in the first year under Mourinho which should be expected when you add so many other good players to play around them. Drogba didn't really perform for his first two seasons under Mourinho which is why they signed Shevchenko to replace him - his best football probably was under Ancelotti. Robben definitely got better after leaving Chelsea. Ashley Cole's year under Mourinho was arguably the worst of his entire career as he tried to turn him into a defensive left-back like Ben Davies and nullified the attacking threat that made him so good. Essien for sure was at his best under Mourinho but also decimated by injuries after Mourinho left so hard to compare. Ozil had just starred in Germany's World Cup run and the Bundesliga season before for a Bremen side that qualified for the Champions League - his career was on a massive upward trajectory at the time.

I think it's only natural that if you manage world class players in their mid-20s then a lot of them will likely get better - many will be world class trainers after all. Yes he improved plenty of players but I think the question mark is to whether he can integrate promising, raw talent that hasn't yet broken into a top side in the way Ferguson, Wenger and even Poch have. I can't think of any players off the top of my head that have become first choice players in successful Mourinho sides that were in the youth team when he arrived or signed as youngsters to blood their way in. In his defence, he has usually been at clubs with an expectation to spend big money and deliver trophies every year without much wiggle room so they are always likely to prioritise an expensive new addition as opposed to letting the likes of De Bruyne and Salah take their time to develop their game. That's not to say he can't do it - but he never has.

A lot also depends on the coaching team as a whole. In Sacramento, we have an assistant who already has an impressive amount of experience away from working with Jose and I wouldn't be surprised if DL has it in mind that he could potentially be next in line. The players aren't just working and developing under Jose although he does himself have a lot of experience that he can impart onto the players.

 

[Gb160]

This is the long game - it's crazy people getting overexcited about a win and overly pessimistic about a defeat. Good things take time and rushing to a final verdict on Mourinho at this stage makes no sense. We have no idea whether he will succeed or not.

I couldn't agree with this more.

I've seemingly been labelled as Jose's biggest fan in here yet all I've ever said when defending him is 'its too early to judge him yet' to the increasing amount of posters who have already made their minds up, refusing to even entertain the idea of backing the current manager, and are proudly proclaiming he'll fail here.

What makes me chuckle is even if he does fail here, no ones going to labelled as a footballing genius for having the insight to call it this early, yet if he does succeed there are going to be quite a few looking pretty damn daft...I honestly don't understand why people do it.

 

[Metalhead]

I couldn't agree with this more.

I've seemingly been labelled as Jose's biggest fan in here yet all I've ever said when defending him is 'its too early to judge him yet' to the increasing amount of posters who have already made their minds up, refusing to even entertain the idea of backing the current manager, and are proudly proclaiming he'll fail here.

What makes me chuckle is even if he does fail here, no ones going to labelled as a footballing genius for having the insight to call it this early, yet if he does succeed there are going to be quite a few looking pretty damn daft...I honestly don't understand why people do it.

Absolutely. I feel the same and I'm sure that there are loads of others who aren't Jose fanboys but just feel that he should get a chance. It's fine that people dislike him - I'm sure that you did at times and I certainly did but he just deserves the same fair crack that would no doubt be afforded to Nagelsman, Graham Potter or whoever else is trending on here as the saviour of the mystical 'Spurs way'. What I find bemusing is the revisionism that goes on with people picking away at what he has achieved in order to reinforce their view that he shouldn't be here.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

I couldn't agree with this more.

I've seemingly been labelled as Jose's biggest fan in here yet all I've ever said when defending him is 'its too early to judge him yet' to the increasing amount of posters who have already made their minds up, refusing to even entertain the idea of backing the current manager, and are proudly proclaiming he'll fail here.

What makes me chuckle is even if he does fail here, no ones going to labelled as a footballing genius for having the insight to call it this early, yet if he does succeed there are going to be quite a few looking pretty damn daft...I honestly don't understand why people do it.

That’s the issue, nobody cares for nuance and grey areas. It’s possible to not have been a Jose fan, to identify with other types of football than his, to be aghast at Pochettino’s departure having not been fully backed even, but still realise that Jose inherited a poor situation, has been faced with as trying circumstances as you could hope for, has yet to have proper opportunity to put a stamp on the side, and be hopeful that with a summer of rest and reshaping we’re much improved next season.

When taking into account our start to the season and the Covid inflicted disruption that then followed, it’s not unreasonable to think that Mourinho, with his record he of achievement, is entitled to at least a summer and the start of next season to try and get us moving in the right direction. Doesn’t mean you’re a Jose fanboy or a Levy bastard son, it only means that you want your club to succeed and the best chance of that happening is if the current manager succeeds, whoever that might be.

 

[allatsea]

That’s the issue, nobody cares for nuance and grey areas. It’s possible to not have been a Jose fan, to identify with other types of football than his, to be aghast at Pochettino’s departure having not been fully backed even, but still realise that Jose inherited a poor situation, has been faced with as trying circumstances as you could hope for, has yet to have proper opportunity to put a stamp on the side, and be hopeful that with a summer of rest and reshaping we’re much improved next season.

When taking into account our start to the season and the Covid inflicted disruption that then followed, it’s not unreasonable to think that Mourinho, with his record he of achievement, is entitled to at least a summer and the start of next season to try and get us moving in the right direction. Doesn’t mean you’re a Jose fanboy or a Levy bastard son, it only means that you want your club to succeed and the best chance of that happening is if the current manager succeeds, whoever that might be.

I want to agree with you but I don’t see how the players and Mourinho will get much chance to rest and reshape this summer with the next season likely to be starting beginning of September. Players will want a proper break and time away with their families. Just don’t see how it can all be fitted in.

 

[wrd]

I want to agree with you but I don’t see how the players and Mourinho will get much chance to rest and reshape this summer with the next season likely to be starting beginning of September. Players will want a proper break and time away with their families. Just don’t see how it can all be fitted in.

Won't be any worse than any world cup summer plus no stupid overseas friendlies to deal with.

 

[arunspurs]

I want to agree with you but I don’t see how the players and Mourinho will get much chance to rest and reshape this summer with the next season likely to be starting beginning of September. Players will want a proper break and time away with their families. Just don’t see how it can all be fitted in.

This is not a typical summer. Even if there is 2 month time, it wont be a typical vacation for them - they may not be able to travel where they want. So, its no different from what they did in lockdown. Players should have spent lot of time with families - They will have to make some sacrifices (which aren't the worst in the world anyway) on the vacation plans.

For me , this 1.5 month break should help us, atleast we will have more time to regroup than those teams which are involved in European/ FA Cup competitions.

 

[Stamford]

Personally I used to be all for the 'Spurs Way' but now I couldn't give a chuff, this club needs to win something and fast. The years tick by and we still cherish this 'Spurs Way'. I am getting to old now and I want to see Spurs win something again and I want my son to see them win something and not hang his head when he goes to school and we have been beaten by one of his mates teams for the last 5 years in a row.

The 'Spurs Way' is honestly a load of nonsense. Every club thinks they have their own way, the only thing that matters is winning. Lets win first and worry about the style after. I want memories of trophies and us on the high road.

 

[ClintEastwould]

we played some amazing football under Poch (whom i will always love), but ultimately we won nothing. I always thought the Pleat 87 team was the best Spurs side never to win a trophy but I reckon the 2017/18 side was the best side of the whole premier league era (all clubs) never to have won a trophy.

if we shithouse our way to the Europa League (if we qualify) next year under Mourinho, i won't be complaining, I will be dancing, singing and totally losing it because the last time I did that was in 2008!!

17/18 is so underrated we were magnificent that year especially against the big sides. Getting sucker punched by Juve seems to have detracted from that.

 

[Essex Spur]

I am going to say something that will upset more than a few " I am exited for next season and can see us with three or four additions been a force " There I have said it and I await abuse .

I agree the big issue is will he get the additions ?

 

[Shadydan]

This is exactly what I was saying! This thread is literally bipolar.

The forum.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

The 'Spurs Way' is honestly a load of nonsense. Every club thinks they have their own way, the only thing that matters is winning. Lets win first and worry about the style after. I want memories of trophies and us on the high road.

While I’d say our arrogant ‘Spurs way’ justification for failure is over the top at times, it’s not nonsense. Rowe was the Pep of his time, introducing a style of football (with heavy balls and mud heap pitches) to this country that was totally unique on these shores having studied it in Hungary. Before him every team was a Pulis wet dream. Then there’s the fact that when we were winning significant trophies consistently for three decades straight, we did so built around flair players throughout, whether that’s Jones and Greaves, Gilzean, Peters, Ardikes, Hoddle, Waddje, Gazza or even Cyril Knowkes. In the meantime, Liverpool, Everton, Arsenal, Villa, Nottingham Forest and Leeds of course all enjoyed greater success by way of championships, but those sides were all built on bullying the opposition and being snarlingly aggressive. Perhaps our lack of league titles owes to needing a bit more than that, but pretty much every successful Spurs side was also entertaining compared to pretty much all of our rivals.

At least this is what I was brainwashed with effectively from birth, as I’m still not 35 for a few weeks ?