Transition Myth

[Spurs_Bear]

Now ?

**** = Hero.

You're too kind.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

This is such an idiotic load of bollocks to be spouting.


That presumably grown-up people can actually believe this kind of bullshit. That AVB - who has tried all along to buy clever players like Modric at Chelsea, Mata (I think), Moutinho (twice), Willian, Eriksen etc should do so with the soul intention of stopping them from playing instinctively.

It was under him that Moutinho flourished as a player.

This really is a fuckwitted idea going round that AVB is somehow coaching players not to be creative or incisive or to think for themselves when they have the chance. Is Townsend looking shackled by a mental straightjacket ? Seriously ? the fucking ki's running all the place.

Because a bunch of players, new to a country, a tough new league and mostly each other, as well as some being nothing more than kids, are not clicking harmoniously it's because their coach has planted risk averse chips in their heads ?

Which players have improved under AVB bar Roy of the Rovers?

 

[DCSPUR]

thought some on here could do with a brain retrain:
http://blog.bufferapp.com/how-be-mo...er&utm_content=bufferf7203&utm_medium=twitter

 

[dudu]

i think its time AvB started to trust in the ability of the players. Yes, let them run about a bit.

Eriksen knows how to play a killer pass, Soldado knows what runs a forward needs to make. etc etc. Dont go crazy, we need a framework, a formation, but trust them to know what to do and unleash them. Encourage them to try the occasional hollywood pass, the unexpected. dont beat them for it.

and it wont come off every time. but it will come off with increasing frequency, and thats when we will see this infamous 'gelling'. because thats all it is at the end of the day, its about learning what the guy behind you, or next to you is good at, and what he can do and the runs he likes to make.

we have so much potential. its being suffocated to the point its irrelevant who plays where, everyone is a robot.

Nail on head...... Its time for AVB to grow up a little and step out of his comfort zone. He has a potential crisis on his hands and well, he hasn't really been given an opportunity to bring club through a crisis before. He doesn't have being able to do that on his CV and perhaps that was grossly overlooked in hiring him. When things aren't going well the only way you may know how to do something, you need to be bold and have the balls to do something different.

What you suggest isn't even a change in football tactics, its a change in psyche for the players with the aim to relax them on the pitch and left their footballing brains work in a more natural way.

Im hoping that he has an inkling to do this eventually anyway. It takes time for him to probably learn the players and feel confident in their ability to play in his framework with more freedom and personal expression.

If he can do that, plans to do that and can implement a balance between the two extremes then good, thats what i want to see. He doesn't have the experience to know when the right time to unleash is but its time to learn and progress himself as well as the team.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Its not really idiotic though BC. Of course he's not intentionally setting out to do that on an individual basis to the players he acquires, that's a ridiculous notion.

But he could be limiting their natural games inadvertently with such emphasis on the collective - the ideas and philosophies he's trying to integrate could be having an affect on some of them.

You've totally simplified the point.

Fuck me. Eriksen's a 21yo kid who's had about 4 and half games in a new much tougher league with a bunch of other bods also having their first few games for us, you don't think might be why he isn't looking like Zinadine Zidane yet maybe ?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

or to put it in less flowery language, do i think that AvBs methodology and philsophies hinder rather than help the natural creativity of our players and the team as a whole?

Yes. Yes I absolutely do.

And I think performances, and our goal scoring records add credence to that view. And I think if we dont conveniently ignore last season the degradation of our invention as the first season went on also adds credence to it.

Im sure you are going to highlight Bale (being the only example i can think of) but which player has bloomed under AvB during his time in England?

Or could it be that last year we had Adebayor in a mental fugue and Defoe to chose from, with Dempsey and Dembele in for Modric and VDV and this year we have almost a completely new front 6, rather than some warped chinese water torture AVB has dreamt up ?

If nothing else Bale is absolute proof that it's bollocks that AVB mentally shackles players. Townsend is more proof. He improved facets of of whole team, he got players working off the ball, closing down and pressing and concentrating for 90 minutes that previously couldn't. he got us passing the ball to each other instead of the opposition.

 

[Mr Pink]

Fuck me. Eriksen's a 21yo kid who's had about 4 and half games in a new much tougher league with a bunch of other bods also having their first few games for us, you don't think might be why he isn't looking like Zinadine Zidane yet maybe ?

Eriksen will go on to be a class talent no doubt. He has real quality, I'm not having a go at him - where is this coming from? But we might not see the best of him either if we continue with this slow, ponderous style of football with no tempo or urgency to move the ball quicker.

If you want to believe its all down to individual players settling, ok. I think the problem is more deep rooted than that. Bar Bale we've been boring as fuck for the best part of 18 months. Yes we've improved collectively off the ball and I applaud AVB for that but its coming at a cost, there are no signs we're improving on it - none, in fact we seem to be regressing if anything.

Its a horrible brand of football, and the more we continue to play this slow ponderous football the more the players will become frustrated and lose confidence. You can already see it draining out of them.

You don't need to time to settle to move the ball quicker as a team I'm afraid. If we were zipping it about, passing and moving properly for one another and some things weren't coming off due to a lack of understanding I wouldn't mind one bit - at least you could see the potential.

This isn't solely down to clicking or gelling, its a style of play we've been playing for ages - and its flawed, dull and predictable. He needs to change it, and change it fast.

And before you say it earned us 72 points last season, which it did, that had a lot to do with Bale, and yes he should take credit for that, but now we face a different challenge, like attacking as a team and we're failing miserably at it. Even allowing for a period of adjustment, and some of them have been integrated at different rates anyway, we should still be seeing a lot more than what we have. We simply don't move the ball quick enough, and there isn't enough off the ball movement and I don't see how several new players coming in can be labelled the most significant reason for us not being able to do such things. To me that's coming from the training ground, and AVB clearly has his reasons for playing this way - possession at all costs is my guess.

Take out Bale's long range missiles and how many points would we have had last season. I'm guessing at least 10-12 less. Moot point perhaps, but look how many long range attempts have we had this season.

 

[beats1]

There is also no allowance in your assessment for the fact that but for a shinier or a bit of luck, or Defoe scoring first when clean through in a couple of games, or keepers not setting opta records we'd possibly be a few points better off and the mass hysteria over being 2 points off the CL places and 4 points off second place with 26 games still to play might not be taking place.

Not one player purchased this summer has set (a footballing) foot in this country before. Many of them are very young and a long way from the finished product.

We have replaced 5 of our front 6 players effectively this season.


Do you not think we are exaggerating the crisis a little. That some of us need to re-evaluate the reality ?

Are we really talking about sacking a manager because we are 4 points off second place with 12 games gone ? I'm all for ambition but a little dose of fucking realism goes a long way too.

Firstly are we not lucky that;
That was it not for the last minute goal against Cardiff
Cross that went in against Villa
Penalty that wasnt one against Hull
Penalty against Swansea was given despite it not appearing to be one
Penalty against Palace another harsh handball!

Had we drawn 3 of the games above we would be 13th right now!

As for replacing our front 6
Townsend was here last season until February, so not as new as people claim, Siggy has been playing on the left wing, Holtby and Dembele still been in the middle and Lennon has been in the team, when he is fit. Sandro also has been in the team when fit. This weekend it is likely that four of these players will be our front 6.

As for exaggerating this crisis, we havent played well all season and our possession football has been some of the worst I have witnessed, I know you like it but we never look scoring. You mention how Arsenal played a similar system but arsenal were never this slow off the ball, on the ball and never held ball and not look like they weren't going to create a chance!

Also what about the teams that dont have a world class player, liverpool only have one in Suarez, Southampton have got any, neither have Everton, nor newcastle. Last season everybody were saying arsenal lost their only world class player in Van Persie!

 

[CowInAComa]

Or could it be that last year we had Adebayor in a mental fugue and Defoe to chose from, with Dempsey and Dembele in for Modric and VDV and this year we have almost a completely new front 6, rather than some warped chinese water torture AVB has dreamt up ?

If nothing else Bale is absolute proof that it's bollocks that AVB mentally shackles players. Townsend is more proof. He improved facets of of whole team, he got players working off the ball, closing down and pressing and concentrating for 90 minutes that previously couldn't. he got us passing the ball to each other instead of the opposition.

Plenty of other sides get by without world class players up top. Plenty of other sides manage 'transition' without completely losing all cutting edge.

the fact is, we've scored 9 in 12 games. Having some new players stopped being a viable excuse a long time ago.

Bale is proof that great players can produce individual moments of brilliance. Real Madrid arent built around Bale and yet, he is still scoring for fun. Time we stopped pretending that Bale is a creation borne of AvB, he is a phenomenon and you know it.

Townsend seems to have succumbed to the same drain that sucks the souls from all our new signings over the last few games to me. Surprise that he is so much more effective in the totally new environment of england. Presumably he should not be expected to pass, shoot or run with the ball as he 'transitions' into the england team for at least a season?

Youve started to run out of excuses. A work in progress excuse only works when there is progress, signs of going backwards sort of make it void.

 

[CowInAComa]

Firstly are we not lucky that;
That was it not for the last minute goal against Cardiff
Cross that went in against Villa
Penalty that wasnt one against Hull
Penalty against Swansea was given despite it not appearing to be one
Penalty against Palace another harsh handball!

Had we drawn 3 of the games above we would be 13th right now!

As for replacing our front 6
Townsend was here last season until February, so not as new as people claim, Siggy has been playing on the left wing, Holtby and Dembele still been in the middle and Lennon has been in the team, when he is fit. Sandro also has been in the team when fit. This weekend it is likely that four of these players will be our front 6.

As for exaggerating this crisis, we havent played well all season and our possession football has been some of the worst I have witnessed, I know you like it but we never look scoring. You mention how Arsenal played a similar system but arsenal were never this slow off the ball, on the ball and never held ball and not look like they weren't going to create a chance!

The whole 'but if we had.. ' argument is a desperate one.

Im sure there are plenty of similar cases of opposing teams missing scorable chances against us, Benteke at Villa springs to mind. Didnt Swansea miss a sitter?

 

[beats1]

Eriksen will go on to be a class talent no doubt. He has real quality, I'm not having a go at him - where is this coming from? But we might not see the best of him either if we continue with this slow, ponderous style of football with no tempo or urgency to move the ball quicker.

If you want to believe its all down to individual players settling, ok. I think the problem is more deep rooted than that. Bar Bale we've been boring as fuck for the best part of 18 months. Yes we've improved collectively off the ball and I applaud AVB for that but its coming at a cost, there are no signs we're improving on it - none, in fact we seem to be regressing if anything.

Its a horrible brand of football, and the more we continue to play this slow ponderous football the more the players will become frustrated and lose confidence. You can already see it draining out of them.

You don't need to time to settle to move the ball quicker as a team I'm afraid. If we were zipping it about, passing and moving properly for one another and some things weren't coming off due to a lack of understanding I wouldn't mind one bit - at least you could see the potential.

This isn't solely down to clicking or gelling, its a style of play we've been playing for ages - and its flawed, dull and predictable. He needs to change it, and change it fast.

And before you say it earned us 72 points last season, which it did, that had a lot to do with Bale, and yes he should take credit for that, but now we face a different challenge, like attacking as a team and we're failing miserably at it.

You see people are saying a horrible brand of football but that isnt the issue. The issue is we are not breaking down teams and creating chances and we havent for 18 months. We have system of pot luck where our chances are all coming from 20 yard shots outside the box.

Hence the fact we have had the most shots in the Premier league with 170 shots yet have only scored the third highest goals tally in the premier league with 9 goals

 

[Legend10]

Fuck me. Eriksen's a 21yo kid who's had about 4 and half games in a new much tougher league with a bunch of other bods also having their first few games for us, you don't think might be why he isn't looking like Zinadine Zidane yet maybe ?

No he isn't, he's a player with 40 something international caps and CL football under his belt, he's far from being a kid in football terms.

All this kid stuff isn't true at all, at City we had an experienced mature GK and back 4, 2 mature CM players, Lennon, Soldado and Holtby, the only one who could slightly be called a kid was Lamela who's a full Argentinian international and we had less new players than City who also had the biggest kid on the park in Nastasic playing in a position where experience is vital.

 

[beats1]

The whole 'but if we had.. ' argument is a desperate one.

Im sure there are plenty of similar cases of opposing teams missing scorable chances against us, Benteke at Villa springs to mind. Didnt Swansea miss a sitter?

We scored 3 goals against teams in penalties that shouldnt of been given and that we werent breaking down. Isnt that not lucky?

Again other teams have missed sitters against but I dont remember us missing any clear as day ones, I would of been happy we were there

 

[CowInAComa]

We scored 3 goals against teams in penalties that shouldnt of been given and that we werent breaking down. Isnt that not lucky?

Again other teams have missed sitters against but I dont remember us missing any clear as day ones, I would of been happy we were there

Im agree with you. Pointing out that whilst things may have been different had defoe scored against spam or Krul not saved one of the shots, we equally can have the same possibilities aimed at us. Maybe more so.

 

[beats1]

Im agree with you. Pointing out that whilst things may have been different had defoe scored against spam or Krul not saved one of the shots, we equally can have the same possibilities aimed at us. Maybe more so.

Can we really though because against West Ham we were still losing by 2 iirc, Krul didn't make a world class save, he made 2 or 3 good saves and the rest all hit at him

 

[Legend10]

The bottom line is the way we are playing doesn't create chances, barring a desperate 2nd half against Newcastle when we had to throw the kitchen sink at them.

It's also telling that we have lost every single game to 0 when we gave conceded the first goal, we haven't gained a single point from being behind, that is a hallmark of a team that doesn't know how to attack and is piss easy to defend against.

 

[Kingstheman]

What? Wait a minute?

Jenas left! Why wasn't I informed of this?

Levy, there's your problem! No more Jenas, the sideways/backwards passing disease absorber has gone! Sideways/backwards passing contagion!

 

[CowInAComa]

Can we really though because against West Ham we were still losing by 2 iirc, Krul didn't make a world class save, he made 2 or 3 good saves and the rest all hit at him

I think we were 0-0 when Defoe didnt score.

Youre right though its irrelevant. We didnt score against West Ham or Newcastle, there is no What if?. Its a desperate excuse.

 

[Mr Pink]

You see people are saying a horrible brand of football but that isnt the issue. The issue is we are not breaking down teams and creating chances and we havent for 18 months. We have system of pot luck where our chances are all coming from 20 yard shots outside the box.

Hence the fact we have had the most shots in the Premier league with 170 shots yet have only scored the third highest goals tally in the premier league with 9 goals

The two go hand in hand though to a certain extent. If we were breaking teams down and scoring goals we wouldn't be dull would we? Its no surprise that our football looks and feels dull though is it....I mean no wonder we aren't scoring goals, it feels tiring watching us at times its so slow.

 

[shelfboy68]

This is such an idiotic load of bollocks to be spouting.


That presumably grown-up people can actually believe this kind of bullshit. That AVB - who has tried all along to buy clever players like Modric at Chelsea, Mata (I think), Moutinho (twice), Willian, Eriksen etc should do so with the soul intention of stopping them from playing instinctively.

It was under him that Moutinho flourished as a player.

This really is a fuckwitted idea going round that AVB is somehow coaching players not to be creative or incisive or to think for themselves when they have the chance. Is Townsend looking shackled by a mental straightjacket ? Seriously ? the fucking ki's running all the place.

Because a bunch of players, new to a country, a tough new league and mostly each other, as well as some being nothing more than kids, are not clicking harmoniously it's because their coach has planted risk averse chips in their heads ?

Don't see any problems at Southampton or Liverpool also with new players and managers no excuses there I think we are underachieving slightly don't you.