Ratings v Stoke

[BK007]

I was watching the game but having a much more interesting discussion, so obviously couldn't catch mistakes and couldn't tell why the game started to slip away beyond the obvious.

Thought Dembele, Kane, Mason...the team basically were lively and looked pretty quick and dynamic for a large while when we were dominating and suddenly after the subs basically were being beaten to every ball and outmuscled by Stoke everywhere. Literally lost the plot. Attacks became ineffective, passes going astray or into blind alleys, hopeful long balling...

Blame falls on Levy and Poch for me.

Did not see the Bentaleb storm off but bad signs from him. Guy has to shape up his attitude. He's not brilliant and more BS and many others can take his place. Literally no one in this team apart from Kane (though according to Poch and Levy, Chadli and Lamela can play striker too) is not droppable.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Here starts probably the most unpopular post you'll likely read in Spurs Chat tonight.


Lloris - 8 - Outstanding. Two magnificent saves (Butland had 2 just as good, which ultimately were the difference in the two teams. We expect Hugo to make these now. Butland had little right to save v Mason or Kane), several other good ones. Great to have him back. But could argue a minus point deserved for the fact we went quiet when it went to 2-2. That's when you need your captain.

Walker - 7 - The battle of the game was Walker vs Arnautovic. I say battle as we dicked every other contest. Walker got a booking after 20 minutes and I was petrified after that. But Kyle wasn't. He continued to compete and despite Arno getting goalside a few times, Walker did really, really well.

Toby - 8 - Loses half a point for conceding a silly penalty. Crazy soft decision but ref was giving those all day. Otherwise outstanding, especially in the air and with two passes of 50+ feet that could have created chances. Top signing.

Jan - 8 - Brilliant partnership with Toby. We caught them offside a lot. He is leading the line very well. Never beaten as far as I could see.

Davies - 6.5 - Couple of poor bits of attacking play. Couple of times he wasn't as far forward as he should have been as we tried to shift the ball quickly. But he's young and his assist for Chadli's goal was outstanding.

Dier - 8 - Most Tottenham fans don't understand why he's playing here. They're the same ones who won't understand why he was Man of the Match. It's not even a new role ffs. Busquets has been doing this for 6 years. The fact this kid has taken to it so well shows what a brilliant pre-season we must have had and how hard they've all worked.

Mason - 7.5 - Massive performance. Was everywhere. Poch's biggest mistake was taking Mason off. The team missed him greatly when he left. Had several shots but it was his tempo setting that impressed me. Deservedly replaced Nabsy.

Dembele - 7 - Used the ball well, if predictably slowly. One of his better home games for us. Frustratingly shot when we were 4 v 4 and he could have slid in any other player to score the winning goal for us.

Eriksen - 7.5 - MotM in the first half. Used the ball so well and at the heart of all our best work. Linked well with all around him. Went quieter in the second half as Stoke came into it. But a good display.

Chadli - 7 - Could have had a hat trick. Got one. Made some lung-busting runs that put the fear of God into the Stoke defence. But didn't feel like much more than this was given. We really needed him to offer something when Kane went off but it proved too much for him.

Kane - 7 - Ran his bloody arse off. Huge bag of ice on his feet after being subbed as I presume he ran so much his toes caught fire. Every chance we got either went to him, was assisted by him, or was because his smart run created space. Deserved the goal that Butland, somehow, kept out.

Subs:

Nabsy and Lamela - 4 - Same comments apply to both: Neither should really have come on. Team was so in system and settled that any change was going to a) confuse, and b) make them look bad. And they both did look bad. But as much about those around them not performing as their individual contributions.


And to answer your questions, no this isn't naive or generous. For 75 minutes we produced a Champions League level performance. In five minutes we were sucker-punched twice, very unfortunately. Otherwise, you can't expect too much more of the group. Our system and strategy and every individual performance was very good-to-excellent. Really. I'm sorry that this isn't the considered view of the masses.

Good read. When I've finally made it back home (flight is delayed and then there's still the train from gatwick to North London) I'll watch the extended highlights which father will hopefully remember to record for me but this is pretty much how I anticipated things to have gone. Great pre subs, awful post subs. If this transpires to be the case then I will credit the manager for our great performance, but berate him for our game changing subs, in equal measure. Off gut instinct, sure the the energy / enthusiasm of Alli would have better replaced a waning Mason, while Carroll after pre season should surely have been the one to come on for Kane in the absence of a striker, with Chadli moving up top?

Also, you liken Dier to Busquets, and if that's the case then wonderful, but surely that is further evidence that we are better off with a 433?

 

[Shea]

Lamela really looks like A Weak lil boy lost

I'm really starting to lose hope he can cut it with us

 

[thinktank]

Dembele.

 

[Wheeler Dealer]

Dembele.

He was our best midfielder today albeit the competition was not outstanding

 

[Blackcanary]

Can't be bothered to review the whole lot of them (in much the same way that the team seemingly decided they couldn't be be bothered to play the second half...) but I just wanted to mention Mason.

I've been critical of him in the past, but I think he was fantastic today, bringing much-needed energy, and was integral to most of our our progressive play. Well done Ryan!

Did not see the Bentaleb storm off but bad signs from him. Guy has to shape up his attitude. He's not brilliant and more BS and many others can take his place. Literally no one in this team apart from Kane (though according to Poch and Levy, Chadli and Lamela can play striker too) is not droppable.

Was at the game and missed this - what happened here?

 

[The Apprentice]

The vitriol directed at Lamela is embarrassing.

 

[Huddlebone]

At the start of this season I get Adel taarabt/Ade wibes over Bentaleb, Now when the $ is secure, Lets dont give a crap... Hope I am wrong.

 

[jonnyp]

Lloris - 7
Davies - 5
Alderweireld 5
Vertonghen - 6
Walker- 6
Dier - 6
Mason - 8
Eriksen - 7
Kane - 7.5
Dembele - 6
Chadli - 5

Lamela - 2
Bentaleb - 5

 

[double0]

A game of two halves.

Lloris 6 nearly gifted Defeou a goal with a sloppy clearance then made a world class save from the same player.

Walker 6 had he's hands full. Relied far to much on pace rather than positional play.

Alderweireld 6 a very soft pen I thought, by far our best CB.

Vertonghen 5.5 still not convinced by him poor marking on Stokes equaliser imo.

Davies 6 steady did well to cross for Chadli s goal.

Dier 7 very solid performance and scored from a set piece passed the ball quickly as well.

Mason 7 energetic forward passing performance unlucky not to score great to see him back in the team.

Eriksen 5 in and out of the game must do better.

Chadli 6.5 worked hard throughout the game and scored a good goal.

Dembele 5.5 strong on the ball as per usual but not dangerous enough with his passing or attacking intent. Not for me, his had more than enough chances.

Kane 7 all round game was good even though he did not score he lead the line well and put some world class assist balls over the top in key moments.

Bentaleb 5 off form a bit

Lamela 5 was a pest when he came on and I cant question his workrate, however didn't offer a goal threat...needs games I feel

Pochettinho 5 worried about our defensive play

 

[kremlyn]

Lamela rated less than a 2?

Some people aren't getting any.

 

[luka loopy]

Here starts probably the most unpopular post you'll likely read in Spurs Chat tonight.


Lloris - 8 - Outstanding. Two magnificent saves (Butland had 2 just as good, which ultimately were the difference in the two teams. We expect Hugo to make these now. Butland had little right to save v Mason or Kane), several other good ones. Great to have him back. But could argue a minus point deserved for the fact we went quiet when it went to 2-2. That's when you need your captain.

Walker - 7 - The battle of the game was Walker vs Arnautovic. I say battle as we dicked every other contest. Walker got a booking after 20 minutes and I was petrified after that. But Kyle wasn't. He continued to compete and despite Arno getting goalside a few times, Walker did really, really well.

Toby - 8 - Loses half a point for conceding a silly penalty. Crazy soft decision but ref was giving those all day. Otherwise outstanding, especially in the air and with two passes of 50+ feet that could have created chances. Top signing.

Jan - 8 - Brilliant partnership with Toby. We caught them offside a lot. He is leading the line very well. Never beaten as far as I could see.

Davies - 6.5 - Couple of poor bits of attacking play. Couple of times he wasn't as far forward as he should have been as we tried to shift the ball quickly. But he's young and his assist for Chadli's goal was outstanding.

Dier - 8 - Most Tottenham fans don't understand why he's playing here. They're the same ones who won't understand why he was Man of the Match. It's not even a new role ffs. Busquets has been doing this for 6 years. The fact this kid has taken to it so well shows what a brilliant pre-season we must have had and how hard they've all worked.

Mason - 7.5 - Massive performance. Was everywhere. Poch's biggest mistake was taking Mason off. The team missed him greatly when he left. Had several shots but it was his tempo setting that impressed me. Deservedly replaced Nabsy.

Dembele - 7 - Used the ball well, if predictably slowly. One of his better home games for us. Frustratingly shot when we were 4 v 4 and he could have slid in any other player to score the winning goal for us.

Eriksen - 7.5 - MotM in the first half. Used the ball so well and at the heart of all our best work. Linked well with all around him. Went quieter in the second half as Stoke came into it. But a good display.

Chadli - 7 - Could have had a hat trick. Got one. Made some lung-busting runs that put the fear of God into the Stoke defence. But didn't feel like much more than this was given. We really needed him to offer something when Kane went off but it proved too much for him.

Kane - 7 - Ran his bloody arse off. Huge bag of ice on his feet after being subbed as I presume he ran so much his toes caught fire. Every chance we got either went to him, was assisted by him, or was because his smart run created space. Deserved the goal that Butland, somehow, kept out.

Subs:

Nabsy and Lamela - 4 - Same comments apply to both: Neither should really have come on. Team was so in system and settled that any change was going to a) confuse, and b) make them look bad. And they both did look bad. But as much about those around them not performing as their individual contributions.


And to answer your questions, no this isn't naive or generous. For 75 minutes we produced a Champions League level performance. In five minutes we were sucker-punched twice, very unfortunately. Otherwise, you can't expect too much more of the group. Our system and strategy and every individual performance was very good-to-excellent. Really. I'm sorry that this isn't the considered view of the masses.

This pretty much. I thought the overall performance was good. Erikson looked back to his best Kane a constant threat. I thought Toby and Verts look a promising partnership at the back and Dier decent in an unfamiliar role.

The main issue though was the lack of leadership. At times we looked like deer in the headlights. After the goal last week for about 10 mins it was the same case. It's all well and good having a young team but it is quite obvious that we need a leader on the pitch to steady the ship when things aren't going our way.

 

[Mattspur]

Lloris 6
Walker 6
Toby 6
Vertonghen 5
Davies 6
Dier 6
Mason 7
Dembele 7
Eriksen 6
Chadli 6
Kane 6

Subs
Lamela 5
Bentaleb 5

 

[Mr Pink]

I'm honestly quite bemused as to why so many people thought that was a really good performance. Having just rewatched the full game I do think there were some impressive passages of play, first half in particular, but that's all I'd call them and overall it wasn't that great a performance in truth.

For me Stoke had several more clear cut chances to score than we did. Even Mason's chance wasn't easy, but it was a delightful ball from Kane. But Diouf should of had three, possibly four goals. That is poor to gift the opposition that many good chances. A better forward would of put us to the sword today.

All in all I felt we dominated more of the ball but Stoke looked the more potent, that's just the truth of it I'm afraid. Fuck knows what they would of done to us had they had Bojan et al in the team. This is Stoke - that's three games running they've got the better of us IMO. Yes they're a decent team under Hughes and it shows how far they've come, but equally it shows how far we've dropped in the last few season's to.

Mason was clearly the MOTM today, that was a really good performance from him. Dier did well to. I havn't been a fan of him in midfield but he was good today, so credit where its due but I still prefer him at CB. Kane going off clearly played its part, as did their subs but overall you have to say that those goals from Stoke were coming.

Its not like they've just scored two freakish goals in the last ten minutes that nobody saw coming. Diouf had countless free headers throughout the game, the warnings signs were there and grew in momentum, particularly when they made their changes.

Poch subs sometimes confuse me but if those changes had to be made, it couldn't be helped. Tactically though he could of done more to shore up the midfield.

My honest feeling is we're not potent enough in the final third and we're still conceding too many clear cut chances at the other end. Ok we didn't at United, but they even looked limp at Villa Park last night which kind of says more about them than us, but Stoke got far too many today. Going on those alone, and ignoring the pattern and sequence of the goals, we were lucky to get a point.

Lets hope Njie and whoever else come in can have an impact and that Pochettino can get us looking a bit more coherent and better organized.

 

[Syn_13]

I'm honestly quite bemused as to why so many people thought that was a really good performance. Having just rewatched the full game I do think there were some impressive passages of play, first half in particular, but that's all I'd call them and overall it wasn't that great a performance in truth.

For me Stoke had several more clear cut chances to score than we did. Even Mason's chance wasn't easy, but it was a delightful ball from Kane. But Diouf should of had three, possibly four goals. That is poor to gift the opposition that many good chances. A better forward would of put us to the sword today.

All in all I felt we dominated more of the ball but Stoke looked the more potent, that's just the truth of it I'm afraid. Fuck knows what they would of done to us had they had Bojan et al in the team. This is Stoke - that's three games running they've got the better of us IMO. Yes they're a decent team under Hughes and it shows how far they've come, but equally it shows how far we've dropped in the last few season's to.

Mason was clearly the MOTM today, that was a really good performance from him. Dier did well to. I havn't been a fan of him in midfield but he was good today, so credit where its due but I still prefer him at CB. Kane going off clearly played its part, as did their subs but overall you have to say that those goals from Stoke were coming.

Its not like they've just scored two freakish goals in the last ten minutes that nobody saw coming. Diouf had countless free headers throughout the game, the warnings signs were there and grew in momentum, particularly when they made their changes.

Poch subs sometimes confuse me but if those changes had to be made, it couldn't be helped. Tactically though he could of done more to shore up the midfield.

My honest feeling is we're not potent enough in the final third and we're still conceding too many clear cut chances at the other end. Ok we didn't at United, but they even looked limp at Villa Park last night which kind of says more about them than us, but Stoke got far too many today. Going on those alone, and ignoring the pattern and sequence of the goals, we were lucky to get a point.

Lets hope Njie and whoever else come in can have an impact and that Pochettino can get us looking a bit more coherent and better organized.

I pretty much agree with this. I think Dier and Mason did really well today, particularly in their defensive duties. I don't think that it means we don't need to sign a DM though because, like yourself, I'd prefer to see Dier at CB. I think Toby and Jan need time to redevelop their partnership together, however I do think that against a strong striker like Diouf, who is good in the air, we need someone who can give him a hard time. Neither of those 2 centre backs could handle him when those balls were lofted in. It makes me wonder whether Fazio would've been a good shout, even if he's not exactly set the world alight in our colours.

The turning point for me was losing Kane's work rate up top. He did well to press from the front and drop deep to create chances. Once Chadli went up there it just wasn't the same, especially since Lamela came on to fill in at midfield and failed to do so.

We need to wait a couple of weeks still until we hopefully sign a striker, and I think we're crying out for a DM too. I hope Levy can get it done. I understand why it drags out so much but I just hate the way we have to almost write off the first few weeks of the season because we're still not a complete team. Even after that it'll take the newbies a few more weeks/months to settle.

 

[RuskyM]

Dier, Kane & Mason were good.

Lamela was awful.

Everyone else put in a standard performance.

 

[Mr Pink]

I pretty much agree with this. I think Dier and Mason did really well today, particularly in their defensive duties. I don't think that it means we don't need to sign a DM though because, like yourself, I'd prefer to see Dier at CB. I think Toby and Jan need time to redevelop their partnership together, however I do think that against a strong striker like Diouf, who is good in the air, we need someone who can give him a hard time. Neither of those 2 centre backs could handle him when those balls were lofted in. It makes me wonder whether Fazio would've been a good shout, even if he's not exactly set the world alight in our colours.

The turning point for me was losing Kane's work rate up top. He did well to press from the front and drop deep to create chances. Once Chadli went up there it just wasn't the same, especially since Lamela came on to fill in at midfield and failed to do so.

We need to wait a couple of weeks still until we hopefully sign a striker, and I think we're crying out for a DM too. I hope Levy can get it done. I understand why it drags out so much but I just hate the way we have to almost write off the first few weeks of the season because we're still not a complete team. Even after that it'll take the newbies a few more weeks/months to settle.

I'd also add why they were allowed to get so many crosses into our box...particularly when we should be more than aware of their aerial strength.

 

[mpickard2087]

I'd also add why they were allowed to get so many crosses into our box...particularly when we should be more than aware of their aerial strength.

It's the problem of Poch's 4-2-4. Those four in front of the central midfielders are basically allowed to get away with doing their own thing. Too many times they are neither pressing nor are they getting back in and making two banks of four or something like a 4-4-1-1 shape. Poch needs to set some standards and get one or the other out of the players on a much more consistent basis. If he is content with what he is seeing them I am worried.

 

[SydneySpur]

Any chance of getting Scott Parker back on loan? What a bunch of soft cocks.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

The Polarisation of Pochettino

May 2014:

My only reservation is that Pochettino's Southampton couldn't manage to keep this intensity up for longer than 45 minutes most games I watched them.

This is my concern with him. Every single time I watched Southampton they were superb for 45-60 minutes and pretty poor for the rest.

Today wasn't the first time we have seen these fears realised, but today we saw it enacted so perfectly. That first half was up there with the best football we've played under Pochettino, up there with the best football we've played in recent times really. We were tenacious, cohesive, clever and clinical (well, by our standards any way). We pressed high, we pressed together, we won the ball and transitioned quickly and Kane had his best 60 minutes since February. The passes he played for Mason and Davies were superb, as was Eriksen's for Chadli. Everything about our play was everything good about Pochettino's methods.

Some will say we were undone by a crazy 5 minutes that began with a needless penalty given away by the otherwise excellent Alderweireld. But that's not the whole truth. By the 70th minute we'd turned a 59% possession supremacy to a 53% deficit. We made 262 passes in the first half and 142 in the second. At 2-0 up there is nothing wrong with a bit of pragmatism, but you keep working, you do it cleverly and and as cohesively without the ball as you played with the ball in the first half.

A coach has to be able to read the game and react to improve things. This is where Pochettino continually struggles. Kane was forced, but by then we were already under the cosh. What I don't understand why, at 2-0 up, he didn't consider bringing Bentaleb on for Kane, pushing Chadli up and going 451 without the ball and 433 with it, he then had a second opportunity to do this with his second sub, instead he took off our best player on the day, moved Dembele, from in front of the heavily pressured Walker and put Lamela there and kept the 4231, with the floundering Dier and Bentaleb maintaining the CM2.

I thought Eriksen had become anonymous second half, but I checked the stats, he actually saw more of the ball in the second half than he did in the first, and having watched the game again he was one of the few still pressing. The player who really dropped off second half was Dier. he made 33 of his 50 passes first half, 17 in the second. There was a great example of why I don't want Dier as CM, especially in this CM2as early as the 15th minute of Sky's extended highlights. We are trying to play the ball out of defence, Stoke are pressing high, Vertonghen and Alderweireld look to Dier repeatedly as they swap passes, Dier responds by refusing to make himself available and instead points to others to receive the ball. He is not comfortable receiving the ball under pressure. He also cannot press the ball because he is easily turned. He also gave another hospital pass away - unpressured - first half. I like Dier. I think he has the makings of a fantastic young CB. He has great qualities for a CB. But he is not the right choice to play in a CM2 that wants to pressurise the ball and transition quickly and progressively.

I don't know how anyone can defend Walker's performance. I read comments like "apart from letting a few get past him he was very good". In context that is an oxymoronic statement. His poor reading and stupid reaction got him booked first half. He wasted a great chance when put behind the defence by Dier because of a poor touch. He was continually reading the movement of Arnautivic wrong and failing to stop balls coming in. So yeah, apart from all the incompetent stuff he was great. Once again he offered absolutely nothing productive offensively. Fuck me, if having a great game not stopping balls coming in and doing nothing offensively ? What's having a bad game ?

Persoannly I would have had Bentaleb on for Kane, gone 451/433, then had Tripier on for Walker, kept Dembele in front of Tripier to help him deal with Stoke's stronger side. Had Mason over that side as well to double/triple up and help deal with Ireland and Stoke's midfield superiority at that point.

What worried me previously and continues to worry me, is Pochettino's inability to tactically manage the second phase of games, tactically react to the changes of momentum or tactical changes the opposition make or, as we saw last week, respond to adversity.

It's really hard to know whether to be excited about what we saw in the great first half or scared of what we saw in the second.

Both I guess.

Individualness

Lloris - one horrible blunder, two or three great saves.

Walker - he did a couple of good things, but his inability to read the game gets him all sorts of trouble and his pace doesn't always get him out of it. Offensively not giving anything to mitigate the defensive deficiencies.

Alderweireld - Really poor penalty to give away, which blotted what had been an otherwise exemplary performance. Fucking shame.

Vertonghen - Pretty decent for the most part. Maybe could have tried to get to the Diouf for the second but I think he thinks Alderweireld has the front end covered.

Davies - I thought he was pretty meh other than his excellent contribution to the second goal. Showed real determination to burst throughout the two defenders, stay composed and put a great ball across.

Dier - Counter intuitive to the way Pochettino wants to play. Was OK first half, disappeared second.

Mason - MOTM until he went off. Was everywhere, blocking vital shots (twice), tenaciously pressing them out of the ball in midfield and was unlucky not to score with a clever move into to the box.

Dembele - Worked really hard and contributed enormously to the game. Only grumble is he still doesn't actually produce the final ball or incisive moment.

Chadli - A typical Chadli performance really. Frustrating poor touch when clean through then pops up and finishes a great move with aplomb. Some good, some bad.

Eriksen - Actually was pretty OK throughout, just the second half his touches were in much less threatening or productive areas, because by then we'd stopped playing and were sitting on the edge of our own box.

Kane - Best 60 minutes for a while. Played two or three lovely balls, worked hard but smart, didn't try to run through brick walls.