The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - DEADLINE DAY 31st August 2021

[crazyguitarman]

JJ said this on Wednesday.

"Nuno position was Traore would definitely help us - club and everyone on transfer committee (inc Nuno) tried to do but agreed 45-50M is a gamble in current climate of a global pandemic with lost revenue. All happy."

I also haven't been able to read every post, so am not quite sure how it's gotten from that to Paratici quitting if it happens again?

I stand corrected! I think I must have just interpreted it as "all in agreement" beforehand, but still I'm not sure where some people are getting the idea that Nuno and/or Paratici are genuinely dismayed or unhappy with Levy's decision. It's equally possible that while they tried to make it work, they were skeptical about the deal themselves when they sat down with Levy to finalise it, no? I can imagine FP not being overly happy with having his boss step in to micromanage though.

 

[TorontoYid]

Title challengers?! If we have zero injuries all season we still won't be near the top spot. There definitely are numerous weak spots in our first XI. It's a case of improving on as many of those as possible every window. We're probably 4 starting players away from being in the title equation, and even then we don't have the manger to compete with Pep/Klopp/Tuchel. I think 5th is our level at the moment.

We have come close a few times in recent years before fizzling out due to injuries or just bad results I think are attributed to fatigue. 2015/16 and 2016/17 seasons are fair examples as well as the CL final I think we might have won had the players not been exhausted. Rotation is important and we never have the depth to do it.

 

[wrd]

I stand corrected! I think I must have just interpreted it as "all in agreement" beforehand, but still I'm not sure where some people are getting the idea that Nuno and/or Paratici are genuinely dismayed or unhappy with Levy's decision. It's equally possible that while they tried to make it work, they were skeptical about the deal themselves when they sat down with Levy to finalise it, no? I can imagine FP not being overly happy with having his boss step in to micromanage though.

I think that the forum will have more extreme feelings and opinions over it than perhaps the people involved in have such is the nature of internet forums. I think the reality is perhaps disappointment that the deal didn't go through but in the grand scheme of things a positive window and I think they'll be pretty happy with what they've got to work with. I think the hope will be that Levy respects the hierarchy that he himself implemented and that Paratici is given autonomy in the role he was brought in to do and that the Traore deal is the exception which may have happened because certain people are adjusting to the new framework. I think yes concern that this might be the start of a situation we see repeat itself in the future and something to keep an eye open for but in regards to this traore situation, I imagine the feelings aren't as bombastic as the forum makes it out.

 

[Freddie]

We have come close a few times in recent years before fizzling out due to injuries or just bad results I think are attributed to fatigue. 2015/16 and 2016/17 seasons are fair examples as well as the CL final I think we might have won had the players not been exhausted. Rotation is important and we never have the depth to do it.

The problem arises way before fatigue kicks in. That title challenge was a long 4 years ago when we had a settled team and a superb starting XI. I'd argue none of our current team get into that one (obvs aside from the ones who are still here). Fatigue definitely cost us then though.

 

[crazyguitarman]

I think that the forum will have more extreme feelings and opinions over it than perhaps the people involved in have such is the nature of internet forums. I think the reality is perhaps disappointment that the deal didn't go through but in the grand scheme of things a positive window and I think they'll be pretty happy with what they've got to work with. I think the hope will be that Levy respects the hierarchy that he himself implemented and that Paratici is given autonomy in the role he was brought in to do and that the Traore deal is the exception which may have happened because certain people are adjusting to the new framework. I think yes concern that this might be the start of a situation we see repeat itself in the future and something to keep an eye open for but in regards to this traore situation, I imagine the feelings aren't as bombastic as the forum makes it out.

Good points, and I agree. Levy probably could have hired God himself as DoF and still wouldn't be able to trust him unquestionably in the first transfer window. Aside from the situation with Traore I think our business has been shrewd, and while I am a little worried that the squad seems a little weaker now than it did last season, I am quietly optimistic that the investment in youth will pay off. Hopefully next year the financials will be better overall and Levy will have the proof of this year's business to give Paratici more free reign in the future!

 

[wrd]

Good points, and I agree. Levy probably could have hired God himself as DoF and still wouldn't be able to trust him unquestionably in the first transfer window. Aside from the situation with Traore I think our business has been shrewd, and while I am a little worried that the squad seems a little weaker now than it did last season, I am quietly optimistic that the investment in youth will pay off. Hopefully next year the financials will be better overall and Levy will have the proof of this year's business to give Paratici more free reign in the future!

Yeah for me, I think this season just felt like taking a piece of clay you keep trying to force to be something and finally accepting you need to smash it flat again and start from the beginning. I think we'd have all loved the process to show signs of being quicker but without that Traore signing I think it's a nod toward this being a slow process which may favour Nuno as lower expectations, less pressures. We're building for the future, some fans won't like that in the short term but personally I'm fine with a slower rebuild if it leads us to where we want to be. Next summer, I expect Nuno and Paratici to be backed a bit more aggressively.

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

I'm trying to find some middle ground here - because that is typically where the truth lies.

In a previous job, I was in a M&A department at a large company. My job was to look for, evaluate, and negotiate purchase prices for business acquisitions. I had complete freedom to explore opportunities, and even engage in exploratory negotiations with business owners. When I found a suitable opportunity - I then had to pitch it to my boss - the division president. If he agreed, then we jointly pitched the acquisition to our Board of Directors.

So, I definitely had to get approval for any acquisition whether it was 30m, or 100+m. Similar to Paratici here. The one caveat would be that the people from whom I had to get approval - were all "experts" in understanding business valuations. So their opinions/judgements were often more experienced than my own. Here, I don't think Levy's football evaluation, or even player valuations are superior to Paratici.

But - and here is where the similarities extend - it was my job to "sell" the acquisition - either to my boss or to the Board. If I felt strongly that a certain acquisition made sense, it was incumbent upon me to convince the others. If I could not do that, and they did not like the deal - it was dead. So, here, we have Paratici, and Nuno, who are convinced Traore is a "need" and that the price, while high, is doable. But, what they were not able to do is sell that vision to Levy. And, that is part of their job - Levy should respect their opinions, but he is not required to take their opinions on blind faith. Either, they could not sell Traore to Levy, or they never felt that strongly about it in the first place.


Now, I don't know how much of that is down to Paratici not selling the deal, or whether Levy was simply being obstinate. I suspect it was a little of both. I don't particularly care for Levy - as it relates to his running the football operations - but I do think that if Traore was a critical need, that Paratici and/or Nuno would have been able to convince Levy. It sounds more likely that Traore was a "luxury" that Paratici/Nuno wanted, but could not convince Levy to buy.


I wish Levy had backed Paratici/Nuno here, but, I don't think its the difference between 4th and 5th. Perhaps we will re-visit the deal in January - depending on how each team is performing at the time.

 

[wrd]

I'm trying to find some middle ground here - because that is typically where the truth lies.

In a previous job, I was in a M&A department at a large company. My job was to look for, evaluate, and negotiate purchase prices for business acquisitions. I had complete freedom to explore opportunities, and even engage in exploratory negotiations with business owners. When I found a suitable opportunity - I then had to pitch it to my boss - the division president. If he agreed, then we jointly pitched the acquisition to our Board of Directors.

So, I definitely had to get approval for any acquisition whether it was 30m, or 100+m. Similar to Paratici here. The one caveat would be that the people from whom I had to get approval - were all "experts" in understanding business valuations. So their opinions/judgements were often more experienced than my own. Here, I don't think Levy's football evaluation, or even player valuations are superior to Paratici.

But - and here is where the similarities extend - it was my job to "sell" the acquisition - either to my boss or to the Board. If I felt strongly that a certain acquisition made sense, it was incumbent upon me to convince the others. If I could not do that, and they did not like the deal - it was dead. So, here, we have Paratici, and Nuno, who are convinced Traore is a "need" and that the price, while high, is doable. But, what they were not able to do is sell that vision to Levy. And, that is part of their job - Levy should respect their opinions, but he is not required to take their opinions on blind faith. Either, they could not sell Traore to Levy, or they never felt that strongly about it in the first place.


Now, I don't know how much of that is down to Paratici not selling the deal, or whether Levy was simply being obstinate. I suspect it was a little of both. I don't particularly care for Levy - as it relates to his running the football operations - but I do think that if Traore was a critical need, that Paratici and/or Nuno would have been able to convince Levy. It sounds more likely that Traore was a "luxury" that Paratici/Nuno wanted, but could not convince Levy to buy.


I wish Levy had backed Paratici/Nuno here, but, I don't think its the difference between 4th and 5th. Perhaps we will re-visit the deal in January - depending on how each team is performing at the time.

This was just to brag about your job wasn't it

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

This was just to brag about your job wasn't it

lol - no - just that I saw similarities in terms of having to sell something to a boss, even though I had a lot of autonomy.

I think if Paratici had really wanted Traore, or felt like he was the one player that would make CL more attainable, Levy would have sanctioned the deal.

And, its easy to blame Levy here - I really want to - but the truth is usually more nuanced, and Levy was obviously not convinced on the deal, which means Paratici/Nuno probably did not sell it well enough.

 

[TorontoYid]

lol - no - just that I saw similarities in terms of having to sell something to a boss, even though I had a lot of autonomy.

I think if Paratici had really wanted Traore, or felt like he was the one player that would make CL more attainable, Levy would have sanctioned the deal.

And, its easy to blame Levy here - I really want to - but the truth is usually more nuanced, and Levy was obviously not convinced on the deal, which means Paratici/Nuno probably did not sell it well enough.

From what I have observed over the years Levy is still working off of player values from 20-30 years ago and can't be convinced a top player is worth the current market value. So many previous managers tried to get top players and each time Levy would wait till the very last moment and offer half the market rate which would inevitably get rejected. Happened too often year after year and even this year when he is supposed to not be involved he still blocks deals for players because he thinks the squad is ok as it is.

NO manager could convince him once he has decided to close the purse

 

[soflapaul]

I'm trying to find some middle ground here - because that is typically where the truth lies.

In a previous job, I was in a M&A department at a large company. My job was to look for, evaluate, and negotiate purchase prices for business acquisitions. I had complete freedom to explore opportunities, and even engage in exploratory negotiations with business owners. When I found a suitable opportunity - I then had to pitch it to my boss - the division president. If he agreed, then we jointly pitched the acquisition to our Board of Directors.

My company is for sale. While i want 100m, 30m would do it.

For me, it all comes down to Fabio's attitude post window. If Herc's info is correct, then I am concerned. We've needed someone like him for a long time

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

From what I have observed over the years Levy is still working off of player values from 20-30 years ago and can't be convinced a top player is worth the current market value. So many previous managers tried to get top players and each time Levy would wait till the very last moment and offer half the market rate which would inevitably get rejected. Happened too often year after year and even this year when he is supposed to not be involved he still blocks deals for players because he thinks the squad is ok as it is.

NO manager could convince him once he has decided to close the purse

I agree that Levy has a poor notion of current player values - and often fails to appreciate player value inflation over time.

But, Levy understands money. The key to selling Levy on a player is to focus on whether the player is financially worthwhile - i.e. will the acquisition impact future revenues in terms of higher placement in the table and/or CL qualification. My loose guess here is that Levy looked at Traore and thought - with him, we could finish 5th, and without him, we could finish 6th (or something similar). That is not a financially worthwhile acquisition.

I think Levy needed to be convinced that Traore was the difference between finishing 4th or finish 5/6th. And, I doubt Nuno, nor Paratici, would put his job on the line for that prediction.

 

[JCRD]

I think this is an antiquated way of thinking about how productive players are on the pitch, or how they contribute to goals and/or wins.

There are lots of things that players do that impact on goal scoring than simply "goals and assists." For example - a player who causes defenders to shift out of space - that space opens up for another player, and maybe its that player, with the extra space/time who puts in the assist.

Or, if you have a particularly pacy winger, maybe that alters the opponent's tactics, and forces them to keep their fullback deeper to account for the winger. That helps relieve pressure on the defense - but never shows up in the stats.

Football is a team sport - and when everyone is playing their role effectively, they contribute to scoring and defending - even if its not measured in "goals and assists". Skippy won't have many goal or assists, but if he plays the CDM role effectively, that frees up Dele and Hojbjerg to get more involved in the attack - and that leads to more goals.

None of this is meant to imply that Traore was the right fit - but, this idea that he can only be effective if he provides "goals and assists" is really a naive way of looking at any players contributions.

I agree but isnt most of that just movement that youre describing?

I can see the benefits of a Traore dont get me wrong but perhaps I just see the potential of better use of £50m who can provide goals, assists and good movement which in turn could create space.

Agree it is a team sport, my fave player was Dembele who doesnt produce goals and assists but then again his role was int he middle of the park to break the lines. I see someone who is going to be part of the front three as someone who should contribute in goals and assists. I dont see that as an antiquated or naive way of looking at a position where their role should be to contribute in goalscoring both providing and scoring.

 

[sausage]

From what I have observed over the years Levy is still working off of player values from 20-30 years ago and can't be convinced a top player is worth the current market value. So many previous managers tried to get top players and each time Levy would wait till the very last moment and offer half the market rate which would inevitably get rejected. Happened too often year after year and even this year when he is supposed to not be involved he still blocks deals for players because he thinks the squad is ok as it is.

NO manager could convince him once he has decided to close the purse

. come on, this isn't a sensible post!

20-30 years ago you could buy a whole club for £50m, never mind a menagerie of shite like we have done.

 

[Jgplk1]

Perhaps this will help?

JJ then followed it up with this in response to hercules post

Good one mate - well done for coming out, much braver than me !

re this : A meeting was held by DL and those involved, and he was not happy to sanction such an outlay. And argued on Stevie, Lucas, Gil, Lucas as ‘just as good’ and better. And we should use them in the mid-term.

Pretty much Verbatim !

I think the reason for the difference is made obvious in the first line

I get this. And I did see it. But him not being happy to sanction a deal, also doesn't equate to Paratici quitting if anything similar happens. Does it? He argued, he wasn't happy, but still the last thing I read JJ saying was everyone kinda agreed. Happy may not be exactly the right word, but it's pretty different to being about to quit.

I'm not questioning anyone by the way, I just don't take what you've said the same way you or other people are. I believe that happened, but still... At no point does JJ say he's unhappy. In that post, again... Unless I'm missing something?

 

[IamSpurtacus]

Remember when Poch said we needed a painful rebuild?

He also said we needed to start "acting like a big club"

Everything about Levy's behaviour says he doesn't have it in his DNA to do that when it comes to the team

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

I get this. And I did see it. But him not being happy to sanction a deal, also doesn't equate to Paratici quitting if anything similar happens. Does it? He argued, he wasn't happy, but still the last thing I read JJ saying was everyone kinda agreed. Happy may not be exactly the right word, but it's pretty different to being about to quit.

I'm not questioning anyone by the way, I just don't take what you've said the same way you or other people are. I believe that happened, but still... At no point does JJ say he's unhappy. In that post, again... Unless I'm missing something?

I think that maybe you are but not in a bad way if that makes sense. Herc's info doesn't need confirming by JJ. I also can't be arsed to argue the toss over Levy any more. Well, maybe on the odd special occasion

 

[TorontoYid]

. come on, this isn't a sensible post!

20-30 years ago you could buy a whole club for £50m, never mind a menagerie of shite like we have done.

Was an exageration but the point is valid that Levy does not accept current market values for players and has not for many many years. Grealish is a good example where we lost out because Levy felt the valuation was too high but it really was not for a player who the club highly rates and does not want to sell. and this was a trend in the transfer window for quite some time where Levy would move late and lowball. Then blame a difficult window when the club rejected the offer and the window closed

 

[IamSpurtacus]

I'm trying to find some middle ground here - because that is typically where the truth lies.

In a previous job, I was in a M&A department at a large company. My job was to look for, evaluate, and negotiate purchase prices for business acquisitions. I had complete freedom to explore opportunities, and even engage in exploratory negotiations with business owners. When I found a suitable opportunity - I then had to pitch it to my boss - the division president. If he agreed, then we jointly pitched the acquisition to our Board of Directors.

So, I definitely had to get approval for any acquisition whether it was 30m, or 100+m. Similar to Paratici here. The one caveat would be that the people from whom I had to get approval - were all "experts" in understanding business valuations. So their opinions/judgements were often more experienced than my own. Here, I don't think Levy's football evaluation, or even player valuations are superior to Paratici.

But - and here is where the similarities extend - it was my job to "sell" the acquisition - either to my boss or to the Board. If I felt strongly that a certain acquisition made sense, it was incumbent upon me to convince the others. If I could not do that, and they did not like the deal - it was dead. So, here, we have Paratici, and Nuno, who are convinced Traore is a "need" and that the price, while high, is doable. But, what they were not able to do is sell that vision to Levy. And, that is part of their job - Levy should respect their opinions, but he is not required to take their opinions on blind faith. Either, they could not sell Traore to Levy, or they never felt that strongly about it in the first place.


Now, I don't know how much of that is down to Paratici not selling the deal, or whether Levy was simply being obstinate. I suspect it was a little of both. I don't particularly care for Levy - as it relates to his running the football operations - but I do think that if Traore was a critical need, that Paratici and/or Nuno would have been able to convince Levy. It sounds more likely that Traore was a "luxury" that Paratici/Nuno wanted, but could not convince Levy to buy.


I wish Levy had backed Paratici/Nuno here, but, I don't think its the difference between 4th and 5th. Perhaps we will re-visit the deal in January - depending on how each team is performing at the time.

Appreciate the perspective, but there's a massive difference between your situation and Paratici

I assume your bosses established a clear line of responsibility for decision making, that you were a "junior" employee, and never under the illusion you could make the transaction decision yourself. I'm guessing, based on your post, you weren't allocated a budget for M&A and deal constraints and told - "you have total autonomy within these constraints to conduct the deals you chose"

Unlike your bosses, Levy doesn't have more competence than the people making the initial recommendation.

Paratici was bought in at board level and was - apparently - sold on the notion he would have decision-making rights within the constraints of the budget and other financial conditions.

Based on Herc and JJ, Levy circumvented the very framework he put in place. So why hire someone to the board only to overrule them in the day to day in an area where they have significantly more competence?

It's classic "sea gull management" - swoop in, sh*t all over everything, then fly off leaving everyone else to clean up the mess.

 

[Aphex]

My company is for sale. While i want 100m, 30m would do it.

For me, it all comes down to Fabio's attitude post window. If Herc's info is correct, then I am concerned. We've needed someone like him for a long time

Well he's already back in Italy so....