Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[Sp3akerboxxx]

Where do you think Ange would be now with the world's best striker in the team?

But minus vicario, vdv, Johnson,, Madison, and Werner?

Probably about 5th. Maybe.

 

[spurs9]

Behave.

Compare Pochs first eleven for that season Vs Anges.

Our squad this season would absolutely destroy the squad that Poch inherited.

Poch didn't have 250m to spend either.

Lloris, Walker, Vertonghen, Rose, Dembele, Eriksen, Lamela and Kane a probably get in this team if we are honest.

Poch started with a squad that finished 6th the season before.

Past spend is incomparable, player prices have changed a lot in 9 years.

 

[jolsnogross]

To be honest, our decline under Poch was obvious way before the cl final and that run massively papered over the serious cracks that had appeared.
Poch didn't help himself at all either.

So it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that he was flying high and within a year everybody turned on him.
It was a slow and painful decline over quite a period of time.

Nah, he was sacked about 12 league games after a CL final, as a victim of his own success. What he achieved within the bounds of Levy/Spurs was a step-change improvement on what has happened in the last half century. We haven't gotten near that since.

There's a microcosm of victim-of-your-own-success now with questions about Ange - if the first 10 games' results happened over the most recent 10 games and everything else was equal (same points total), nearly everyone would be delighted with him. But it isn't and that post-honeymoon period is decidedly average.

I don't think he should be replaced at all, but I have no faith in Spurs fans or Levy that he wouldn't get the sack next season sometime. It has happened relatively quickly to managers who've achieved a lot more.

 

[jolsnogross]

Exactly we were getting worse and worse from 2017-2019.

The entire 18-19 season was filled with lucky performances in the league before our form totally nose dived.

We we poor in the group stages of the CL as well, little bit lucky Barca had already qualified as they took their foot off the pedal.

Start to 19/20 season was really poor and extremely concerning.

Players had clearly become despondent and were no longer reacting to Poch's voice and methods.

We are on the ascendancy now, we were on the descendacy then - huge difference in how the two scenarios are judged.

"Luck" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here!

This type of argument will be retrofitted to justify Ange's removal midway through next season too if we're well off the pacesetters. The start to the season Poch was sacked was poor, but out of sync with the rest of his Spurs career, which included title challenges, cup finals and semis, and a general embedding of good habits that meant we used to go on 5 game winning streaks reasonably often. We might not have had one of those streaks since he left.

I suppose, the key point here is not the individual manager but the broader principle. I'm not sure what people mean by thinking longer term. Someone finished a season in 4th with 71 points, a +28 goal difference, and club-first CL final. He was sacked 12 games later. That's some "descendancy" and one that hasn't been addressed in any way since his departure.

 

[TheHoddleWaddle]

Players just haven't been the same since injury and that fecking game Vs Chelsea.

Whilst I think pre seasons are vastly overrated for what they can achieve, it's clear this team is desperate for one to try and get mentality and fitness right and an opportunity to work on patterns etc.

Obviously there's some questions over Ange for me with his team selections etc, but it's been ever thus with any manager we've had. He's no different. All we need to see is some improvement, but with the issues he's had injury wise I cans we why there is this apparent lull.

Here's hoping we cling onto that 5th spot.

 

[spurs mental]

Ange got 250m to spend and Conte had that team in 4th. Stellini and Mason had them in 8th.

Conte had the best all round striker the league has ever seen, and probably in the world at the time.

 

[spurs mental]

"Luck" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here!

This type of argument will be retrofitted to justify Ange's removal midway through next season too if we're well off the pacesetters. The start to the season Poch was sacked was poor, but out of sync with the rest of his Spurs career, which included title challenges, cup finals and semis, and a general embedding of good habits that meant we used to go on 5 game winning streaks reasonably often. We might not have had one of those streaks since he left.

I suppose, the key point here is not the individual manager but the broader principle. I'm not sure what people mean by thinking longer term. Someone finished a season in 4th with 71 points, a +28 goal difference, and club-first CL final. He was sacked 12 games later. That's some "descendancy" and one that hasn't been addressed in any way since his departure.

This has been done to death in many threads around here, but we hadn't won a league away game since January of 2019.

We were fighting with City and Liverpool until the December of that season and I think we were 2 points off the top around Christmas(?), before we lost at Wembley to Wolves. We were 2nd actually after checking. We were ahead of Arsenal by a good chunk of points, but we were lucky they were as inconsistent as they were at the end of that season, had they beaten Chris Hughton's Brighton instead of drawing they would have finished 4th that season. We scabbed a 2-2 draw at home to Everton on the last day to secure the place. We lost 3rd place on the last day to Chelsea. We had 3 wins in our last 12 league games that season, 7 defeats.

 

[philll]

Players just haven't been the same since injury and that fecking game Vs Chelsea.

Whilst I think pre seasons are vastly overrated for what they can achieve, it's clear this team is desperate for one to try and get mentality and fitness right and an opportunity to work on patterns etc.

Obviously there's some questions over Ange for me with his team selections etc, but it's been ever thus with any manager we've had. He's no different. All we need to see is some improvement, but with the issues he's had injury wise I cans we why there is this apparent lull.

Here's hoping we cling onto that 5th spot.

Never mind a pre-season, we've got a "post-season" to get through first. I just can't make myself care about this trip to Australia, and that's just watching it. I can't imagine how unbothered the players are, especially if the season ends on a disappointing note.

 

[Styopa]

Conte had the best all round striker the league has ever seen, and probably in the world at the time.

I think Conte would have walked if we had sold Kane, anyway. Especially if we sold Kane on the weekend of the start of the season, as we did.

Ange doesn’t get enough credit for how he dealt with the Kane situation which was a huge cloud over the start of our season.

 

[Toast]

I'm impressed by his encyclopaedic knowledge of Billy Joel lyrics

 

[mattstev2000]

From what I've seen, everyone is generally agreeing, Ange should get at least another season.

The only difference seems to be whether you are impressed or otherwise with what has happened this season.

I think we've underperformed, I think we have a better more balanced squad with less obvious deficiencies than we did when Kane was around and I feel with our start and after the January transfer window we should have been aiming for 4th comfortably.

Ange has earned himself another crack next season but at the moment I don't see him being the long term solution to our success, fingers crossed that's wrong.

 

[RuskyM]

Yes, I completely agree.

He took over a side that Conte had in 4th, and then replaced half of it (and I completely agree with this)because they weren't good enough.

To compare this squad and situation, to Pochettinos Sherwood and half the squad revolt situation, then that is insane revisionism for me.

Lloris
Naughton
Kaboul
Dier
Rose

Capoue
Bentaleb

Lennon
Eriksen
Lamela

Adebayor

But honestly. How many of those would make it into our starting eleven?

I do agree that Poch's overachievement is sort of ignored for some reason, but I don't think that lessens the work and relative overachievement that Ange has done.

Besides, the height of Poch was 16/17, which was two years after coming in. That was when things looked collected and precise, rather than the seeds of something in 14/15 and the somewhat erratic brilliance of 15/16.

 

[Trix]

I'm amazed at some of the takes over the last few days, and I always find it remarkable what a narrow defeat to Arsenal can do to some folks on here.

I think far too many posters have lost sight of the bigger picture in all honesty. Be critical of the performance by all means, I certainly have parts of it, but think back to your expectations before the season started and see where we are in comparison.

How many times have we half arsed a new managers rebuild over the last few years? Replacing him now would be as irresponsible from Levy as not bringing in the players the managers want. We'd just have another half built squad probably not suited to the next guy, and another 6 month managerial hunt. At some point we have to try and see things through for a manager or we'll forever continue in this depressing circle of change for changes sake.

 

[jazz15c]

I'm amazed at some of the takes over the last few days, and I always find it remarkable what a narrow defeat to Arsenal can do to some folks on here.

I think far too many posters have lost sight of the bigger picture in all honesty. Be critical of the performance by all means, I certainly have parts of it, but think back to your expectations before the season started and see where we are in comparison.

How many times have we half arsed a new managers rebuild over the last few years? Replacing him now would be as irresponsible from Levy as not bringing in the players the managers want. We'd just have another half built squad probably not suited to the next guy, and another 6 month managerial hunt. At some point we have to try and see things through for a manager or we'll forever continue in this depressing circle of change for changes sake.

Pin this to the top of every thread.

 

[Styopa]

Yes, I completely agree.

He took over a side that Conte had in 4th, and then replaced half of it (and I completely agree with this)because they weren't good enough.

To compare this squad and situation, to Pochettinos Sherwood and half the squad revolt situation, then that is insane revisionism for me.

Lloris
Naughton
Kaboul
Dier
Rose

Capoue
Bentaleb

Lennon
Eriksen
Lamela

Adebayor

But honestly. How many of those would make it into our starting eleven?

But Kane was already coming through and he was the fourth most used player by Poch during the 14/15 season. Only Vertonghen, Lloris and Eriksen made more appearances than him that season. So you can’t just disregard him because he wasn’t a starter at the beginning of the season.

Also, you haven’t included Dembele, who made more PL appearances that season (26) than Capoue (12).

Lamela was super highly rated when we bought him the season before. He also made over 30 appearances for Poch that season too.

I think the above lot are more or less starters in today’s squad. Arguably Rose is a starter too.

Lennon wasn’t a starter for Poch that season, neither was Naughton or Kaboul so I’m not sure what they’re doing in the your poch eleven? That’s like putting Dier, Davies and Hojbjerg into Ange’s best eleven and asking if they get into Poch’s first season team.

 

[teok]

I'm amazed at some of the takes over the last few days, and I always find it remarkable what a narrow defeat to Arsenal can do to some folks on here.

I think far too many posters have lost sight of the bigger picture in all honesty. Be critical of the performance by all means, I certainly have parts of it, but think back to your expectations before the season started and see where we are in comparison.

How many times have we half arsed a new managers rebuild over the last few years? Replacing him now would be as irresponsible from Levy as not bringing in the players the managers want. We'd just have another half built squad probably not suited to the next guy, and another 6 month managerial hunt. At some point we have to try and see things through for a manager or we'll forever continue in this depressing circle of change for changes sake.

Well said. I completely understand heat of the moment/boozy comments on match day, but I thought most people snap out of it.

 

[Albertbarich]

From 2021....reminds me of some people at the moment.

 

[ernest_lowrider]

I'm amazed at some of the takes over the last few days, and I always find it remarkable what a narrow defeat to Arsenal can do to some folks on here.

I think far too many posters have lost sight of the bigger picture in all honesty. Be critical of the performance by all means, I certainly have parts of it, but think back to your expectations before the season started and see where we are in comparison.

How many times have we half arsed a new managers rebuild over the last few years? Replacing him now would be as irresponsible from Levy as not bringing in the players the managers want. We'd just have another half built squad probably not suited to the next guy, and another 6 month managerial hunt. At some point we have to try and see things through for a manager or we'll forever continue in this depressing circle of change for changes sake.

Even if we finish 5th which is highly probably, I'd still say we have overachived this season. The great run at the start of the season made us belive we can compete for top3 being in the middle of rebuild.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

I'm amazed at some of the takes over the last few days, and I always find it remarkable what a narrow defeat to Arsenal can do to some folks on here.

I think far too many posters have lost sight of the bigger picture in all honesty. Be critical of the performance by all means, I certainly have parts of it, but think back to your expectations before the season started and see where we are in comparison.

How many times have we half arsed a new managers rebuild over the last few years? Replacing him now would be as irresponsible from Levy as not bringing in the players the managers want. We'd just have another half built squad probably not suited to the next guy, and another 6 month managerial hunt. At some point we have to try and see things through for a manager or we'll forever continue in this depressing circle of change for changes sake.

True but again it’s such a tiny minority who are actually really doubting Ange it’s almost not worth bringing up.

I’d say 99% of us are fully behind him but can just see a few clear weaknesses which need improving which the vast majority of us think will get fixed given time and better players etc.

 

[thebenjamin]

I'm amazed at some of the takes over the last few days, and I always find it remarkable what a narrow defeat to Arsenal can do to some folks on here.

I think far too many posters have lost sight of the bigger picture in all honesty. Be critical of the performance by all means, I certainly have parts of it, but think back to your expectations before the season started and see where we are in comparison.

How many times have we half arsed a new managers rebuild over the last few years? Replacing him now would be as irresponsible from Levy as not bringing in the players the managers want. We'd just have another half built squad probably not suited to the next guy, and another 6 month managerial hunt. At some point we have to try and see things through for a manager or we'll forever continue in this depressing circle of change for changes sake.

I had a chat with someone in the concourse on Sunday at half time. He seemed like a very nice and intelligent person, but he was arguing that Ange had taken us as far as he could, the football was 'unsustainable' and we need to go for something more pragmatic before its too late. I tried arguing the obvious counterpoints that he'd only been here 5 minutes, had lost Ty best striker in the world and not replaced him, how bad and toxic we were before etc etc but he just wasn't having it. I suppose this is the impact of the Internet and social media.