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Time to drop the 4-2-3-1?

Gassin's finest

C'est diabolique
May 12, 2010
37,355
87,831
I like that. Would switch Winks for Lo Celso and have Lamela in front. Would also have kwp ahead of Forth. Appreciate it could go badly with both him and Tanganga, but it's bad already. Stick a couple of the homegrown in, tell them they are going to get a proper run of games as first choice and hope (lads, it's Tottenham) the crowd get behind them. He's done it once, albeit Kane, Mason, Bentaleb had loan experience, so jfdi.
backline is too frail imo I wouldn't be able to trust that

Dier at cdm would also be a bit dodgy for me, and GLC as a LW I dont think would work, I'd prefer Sess way further forward
Yeah, play around with the selection as you reckon, its just an example of the system I prefer.

That or a good old 4-4-fookin-2.
 
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GetSpurredOn

Well-Known Member
Jun 18, 2006
5,022
8,922
I’d be looking at
Gazzaniga; Walker-Peters, Sanchez, Vertonghen, Sessegnon; Winks, Dier; Lo Celso, Ndombele, Son; Kane

Vorm, Foyth, Davies, Tanganga/Skipp, Sissoko, Lamela, Moura/Parrott.

Whilst that’s laid out as a 4231 to start, but could flex very easily to 3421/3412 with Dier dropping into a back 3, Ndombele pairing up with Winks in the middle of the park. Less need for an out and out DM with a back 3. Son could tuck in alongside Lo Celso as AM, or partner Kane up top with Lo Celso in the No 10 role. You could argue Walker-Peters and Sessegnon could be lightweight on the flanks, but with the Dier able to patrol, they should be ok.

Alternatively, that could switch to a 433/4321/4312 in a similar way.
 

Dannyspur

I just don't know anymore!
Aug 17, 2004
10,127
13,799
I’d be looking at
Gazzaniga; Walker-Peters, Sanchez, Vertonghen, Sessegnon; Winks, Dier; Lo Celso, Ndombele, Son; Kane

Vorm, Foyth, Davies, Tanganga/Skipp, Sissoko, Lamela, Moura/Parrott.

Whilst that’s laid out as a 4231 to start, but could flex very easily to 3421/3412 with Dier dropping into a back 3, Ndombele pairing up with Winks in the middle of the park. Less need for an out and out DM with a back 3. Son could tuck in alongside Lo Celso as AM, or partner Kane up top with Lo Celso in the No 10 role. You could argue Walker-Peters and Sessegnon could be lightweight on the flanks, but with the Dier able to patrol, they should be ok.

Alternatively, that could switch to a 433/4321/4312 in a similar way.

I could never do that dusty bin crap!
 

doctor stefan Freud

the tired tread of sad biology
Sep 2, 2013
15,170
72,169
We need to seriously start looking at 433; the so called ‘rebuild’ ought to be factoring this in.

New RB Sanchez New CB New LB
CDM/ Sissoko
Ndombele Lo Celso
Moura/ New WF Kane Son/Sessegnon​
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
18,702
46,941
I've made a similar post on a different site but interested to know whether anyone else thinks we should try a 4-3-3? I'll explain why in section starting with the forwards...

forwards:

I think a front three of son-kane-lamela/whoever is fit enough, could work, son too me is a player who likes one on ones and as the left winger he's going to be asked to do that constantly, he's also very productive on the ball and knows how to get the ball into the final third, and it would allow kane to drop deep simarlarly to what he does for the england side

on the right wing i'd prefer lamela for now because I do think he's a productive player and can help all over that side offensively and defensively but I do think it's a position people should start looking at, we really have no quality there. I'd also really like to see sessengon tried there eventually

midfield:

I've said before but I do think a midfield 3 would suit all of our midfielders. currently we have no real 6 to play cdm but I do think sissoko if asked to just sit back defend, get the ball to the other midfielders, and protect the back four would do very well there. I think he could be a ball winner for us but Im worried about whether he's too clumsy

as the two midfielder in front of him I think all our options are perfect fits, ndomble wouldn'tn be asked to do as much as he's aksed now in a pivot, which i think would let him get forward and be more creative for the team. Winks has been struggling in the pivot all season and I think it's down to him being asked to do more than he can do. Take away alot of his defensive responsibilities by having him next to two more people I think he could do very very well. finally GLC would absolutely do well as a number 8, he reminds me alot of KDB and I do think he could provide an offensive threat from deep

defence:

i think a back four of davies - sanchez - foyth/dier/toby - aurier/foyth is what we should be using this season anyway, but I think having the fullbacks not being asked to provide the width all the time would allow our defence to stick to defending. at this point we don't have the defenders to build from the back so I think we need to focus on actual defending

let me know what you think
Yep, like it. We’d just need to add a world class RW
 

DomXYZ

Member
Sep 4, 2019
61
60
We need to seriously start looking at 433; the so called ‘rebuild’ ought to be factoring this in.

New RB Sanchez New CB New LB
CDM/ Sissoko
Ndombele Lo Celso
Moura/ New WF Kane Son/Sessegnon​

this is what i was trying to lay out in my original post

id like to see foyth get a chance at CB again and Sess on the right instead of the left
 

rio bryan

Well-Known Member
Dec 30, 2006
547
350
So drop the 4-2-3-1, the other week it was get rid of the diamond formation, seems we are running out of formations, i wonder what the excuse will be when the 4-3-3 doesn't work ? perhaps then people will realize that it isn't the formation but the coaching that is the problem.
 
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DannyNZ

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2017
1,740
4,726
So drop the 4-2-3-1, the other week it was get rid of the diamond formation, seems we are running out of formations, i wonder what the excuse will be when the 4-3-3 doesn't work ? perhaps then people will realize that it isn't the formation but the coaching that is the problem.
I struggle to recognise what formation or what our game plan is when we have possession. But when we don’t have possession it is even harder to figure out what we are trying to achieve, the terracotta warriors would exert more pressure than what we currently seem able to muster. Agree we don’t look at all well coached and look bereft of any game plan, it looks so much more fundamental than formations.
 

Nick-TopSpursMan

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
4,000
18,943
We actually switched to a 4-3-3 at home to Red Star after about 20 minutes and I thought we looked really good.

We also played a version of it away to Pool and had we kept the ball better for transitions we would have won imo.


I would love to see it deployed consistently:

Lloris/Gazza

New RB/Foyth, Sanchez/Dier, New CB/Tanganga, Sessegnon/Davies

New DM/Sissoko/Skipp
Ndombele/Winks (HG), Lo Celso/Alli (HG)

New RWF/Lamela, Kane/Parrott, Son/Lucas
 

Japhet

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2010
19,232
57,392
IMO 433 is the most balanced formation which allows areas of the pitch to be covered efficiently. It doesn't place the high demands on individual players that other formations do. Since we're struggling to win the ball I think 433 would make us more compact and competitive. We also have a decent selection of players for the system. I think it would balance out what we see where some of our players can't get into games whilst others are running out of gas too quickly.
 

razzmaster

Well-Known Member
Jun 21, 2008
2,312
13,057
IMO 433 is the most balanced formation which allows areas of the pitch to be covered efficiently. It doesn't place the high demands on individual players that other formations do. Since we're struggling to win the ball I think 433 would make us more compact and competitive. We also have a decent selection of players for the system. I think it would balance out what we see where some of our players can't get into games whilst others are running out of gas too quickly.

With the players we have at the club, who look like they are part of the long term plans, 433 seems the best fit.

For me Ndombele is the key and I think we need to build a system to suit, which means a midfield 3 with a defined holding player. Lo Celso, Dele, Winks and Sissoko are also more suited to that role imo.

In the wide roles we have Son, Moura, Sessegnon, Lamela and I would like someone like Stengs to offer balance on the right. (possibly Clarke too)

Kane in the Firmino role, with Son as back up and Parrott given a more prominent role. (Similar to how he now plays for England)

We would need new full backs and a holding midfielder for this system to work.

Then see if Foyth, Sanchez, Dier, Tanganga and Davies are good enough at the back or bring in another centre back (preferably left footed)

Would also like to see Skipp given a chance as a DM as I think he would flourish and played the role brilliantly for the youth teams.

Not a huge rebuild over 2 windows but have to do what Liverpool did and find a system, identify the areas for improvement and be decisive in the transfer market.
 

razzmaster

Well-Known Member
Jun 21, 2008
2,312
13,057
We actually switched to a 4-3-3 at home to Red Star after about 20 minutes and I thought we looked really good.

We also played a version of it away to Pool and had we kept the ball better for transitions we would have won imo.


I would love to see it deployed consistently:

Lloris/Gazza

New RB/Foyth, Sanchez/Dier, New CB/Tanganga, Sessegnon/Davies

New DM/Sissoko/Skipp
Ndombele/Winks (HG), Lo Celso/Alli (HG)

New RWF/Lamela, Kane/Parrott, Son/Lucas

That is pretty much what I would like to see as well, except at full back I think it's vital to have like for like replacements. I would prefer to use Foyth and Davies centrally and then bring in players to suit our style. Atal, Aarons, Grimaldo and Sessegnon for example.
 

Nick-TopSpursMan

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
4,000
18,943
That is pretty much what I would like to see as well, except at full back I think it's vital to have like for like replacements. I would prefer to use Foyth and Davies centrally and then bring in players to suit our style. Atal, Aarons, Grimaldo and Sessegnon for example.

I totally agree with you about like for like replacements, I was just going with a realistic 1-2 window rebuild for now. I'm not sure we could manage much more in that timeframe.
 

Japhet

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2010
19,232
57,392
With the players we have at the club, who look like they are part of the long term plans, 433 seems the best fit.

For me Ndombele is the key and I think we need to build a system to suit, which means a midfield 3 with a defined holding player. Lo Celso, Dele, Winks and Sissoko are also more suited to that role imo.

In the wide roles we have Son, Moura, Sessegnon, Lamela and I would like someone like Stengs to offer balance on the right. (possibly Clarke too)

Kane in the Firmino role, with Son as back up and Parrott given a more prominent role. (Similar to how he now plays for England)

We would need new full backs and a holding midfielder for this system to work.

Then see if Foyth, Sanchez, Dier, Tanganga and Davies are good enough at the back or bring in another centre back (preferably left footed)

Would also like to see Skipp given a chance as a DM as I think he would flourish and played the role brilliantly for the youth teams.

Not a huge rebuild over 2 windows but have to do what Liverpool did and find a system, identify the areas for improvement and be decisive in the transfer market.


The other thing which may or may not be obvious is that we've relied far too heavily on Eriksen in a traditional 10 role, to such a point where we constantly hear 'If Eriksen doesn't play, Spurs don't play'. With Ndombele and Lo Celso we now have 2 players who can provide creativity from much deeper positions and with much more incisive passing than we're used to. I think we can move away from the reliance on a 10 pulling the strings and we'll be much better for it. We still have the option of using Lo Celso in that role, and also Kane who I think could be very good there.
 

dontcallme

SC Supporter
Mar 18, 2005
33,988
81,937
At the moment I don't think the formation is our concern.

We are getting destroyed in the full back positions. Poch needs to find our best option out of Aurier, Davies, Sessegnon, KWP, Foyth, Vertonghen, Rose and Dier.

In midfield we need to get the blend right. We have players with a couple of strengths but limitations and new talented players who appear unfit.

Then up front we have talented players but aren't looking clinical.

These issues are about personnel over formation.
 

Japhet

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2010
19,232
57,392
At the moment I don't think the formation is our concern.

We are getting destroyed in the full back positions. Poch needs to find our best option out of Aurier, Davies, Sessegnon, KWP, Foyth, Vertonghen, Rose and Dier.

In midfield we need to get the blend right. We have players with a couple of strengths but limitations and new talented players who appear unfit.

Then up front we have talented players but aren't looking clinical.

These issues are about personnel over formation.


I think part of why we're getting done down the flanks is because playing 2 in CM gives them too much width to cover effectively. This becomes even more evident when the FBs push up and we turn possession over cheaply.
 

skaz04nik

Active Member
Oct 14, 2019
124
146
With the players we have at the club, who look like they are part of the long term plans, 433 seems the best fit.
To play 433 you need solid attacking FBs and excellent DM to cover them and Ndombele/ GLC when they push fwd

We don't have a great RW either. Lamela gets injured far too often

And yeah I think our problem is not in the basic lineup
 
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