Harry Winks - Leicester City

[Thenewcat]

This is funny, why are you using this theoretical cup final as an example? You totally miss the point about being picked over a selection of matches, being readily available, being fit, being receptive to what the manager wants etc...

What you're referring to is quality/abilities - I'm pretty sure you won't find one Spurs fan that will say that Winks is a better payer than the other two but football doesn't work like that, we've not playing FIFA here.

You can argue all you want but you sad yourself that he's not good enough to play in a top 4 team yet he's still here getting mins, doesn't matter what I or you say this is the reality of the situation.

Let me repeat what I said previously as you seem incapable of understanding a basic argument

‘The fact that he is the 5th best CM we have today and gets game time doesn’t mean Jose thinks he is good enough, just that he is what we have’

And you have been repeatedly describing Winks as ‘ahead’ of GLC and Ndombele, but then you yourself concede that is a reflection of fitness and nothing else. The cup final example is to show that Winks would be nowhere near our full strength, everyone available team. I very much doubt he’d be on the bench.

Teams have weaknesses they need to improve on. Do you think Liverpool’s CBs before VVD signed were top 4 standard, because no one else did. They still made the top 4. I’d love winks to improve but today I don’t see a player good enough for where we want to get to. The fact he gets minutes when Gio and Tanguy aren’t available doesn’t change that

 

[Shadydan]

Let me repeat what I said previously as you seem incapable of understanding a basic argument

‘The fact that he is the 5th best CM we have today and gets game time doesn’t mean Jose thinks he is good enough, just that he is what we have’

And you have been repeatedly describing Winks as ‘ahead’ of GLC and Ndombele, but then you yourself concede that is a reflection of fitness and nothing else. The cup final example is to show that Winks would be nowhere near our full strength, everyone available team. I very much doubt he’d be on the bench.

Teams have weaknesses they need to improve on. Do you think Liverpool’s CBs before VVD signed were top 4 standard, because no one else did. They still made the top 4. I’d love winks to improve but today I don’t see a player good enough for where we want to get to. The fa tenths he gets minutes when Gio and Tanguy aren’t available doesn’t change that

If managers don't think players are good enough then those players don't tend to play or clock up many minutes. This is the entire point you're refusing to see, if he wasn't good enough he'd be treated like Fernandes where he wouldn't be clocking up many mins or he would have been sold? so ask yourself why is he still here and why is he still getting matches?

How many more ways do you want me to repeat myself? I am describing the current situation not what's based on your fantasies and ideologies of what you want to happen. Don't forget this has come off the back of you saying that he's not good enough for a top four team, if Jose wasn't happy with him believe me he would have been out the door, you're trying to debate an argument based on your subjectivity, it's pointless.

 

[Thenewcat]

If managers don't think players are good enough then those players don't tend to play or clock up many minutes. This is the entire point you're refusing to see, if he wasn't good enough he'd be treated like Fernandes where he wouldn't be clocking up many mins or he would have been sold? so ask yourself why is he still here and why is he still getting matches?

How many more ways do you want me to repeat myself? I am describing the current situation not what's based on your fantasies and ideologies of what you want to happen. Don't forget this has come off the back of you saying that he's not good enough for a top four team, if Jose wasn't happy with him believe me he would have been out the door, you're trying to debate an argument based on your subjectivity, it's pointless.

Ok we are going nowhere. Your argument is he is playing therefore he’s good enough. It’s a brilliant theory and shows perfectly why no one ever needs to upgrade anywhere because they already have somebody playing those minutes. The fact that spurs have signed 3 players in the last 2 summers who a) play the same position and b) are clearly, fitness permitting, higher up the pecking order just proves that he is Hoddle and Modric into one because two of them haven’t been fully fit so he’s played more minutes. I concede all your points, have a great evening

 

[Shadydan]

Ok we are going nowhere. Your argument is he is playing therefore he’s good enough. It’s a brilliant theory and shows perfectly why no one ever needs to upgrade anywhere because they already have somebody playing those minutes. The fact that spurs have signed 3 players in the last 2 summers who a) play the same position and b) are clearly, fitness permitting, higher up the pecking order just proves that he is Hoddle and Modric into one because two of them haven’t been fully fit so he’s played more minutes. I concede all your points, have a great evening

Not quite, I asked if he wasn't good enough for a top 4 side then why is he still and why is he still clocking up minutes which you seemingly cannot answer, you can dance around the point all you want and resort to sarcasm in order to get your point across, it doesn't make it any more valid, just makes you look petty and childish so yeah you're right best just leave it there

 

[mpickard2087]

Think it's a silly argument, at present I'm not even sure they're all competing for the same position.

Keep seeing a lot of people saying we have gone/we are going to a 4-3-3, well I haven't seen any evidence of that. It's been pretty much throughout Mourinho's first year 4-2-3-1 (actually, more like a 4-2-1-3) with a disciplined cm2 and a No.10, clear structure and difference to the roles. And post-restart GLC and TND have been consistently playing the advanced role.

I think Mourinho wants Lo Celso to play in the 10 role long term. Ndombele I suspect they are hoping can, maybe over the course of the season, be transitioned into the cm2 to make use of his press resistance and ability to carry the ball up the pitch, but think we all know he's still not ready for that quite yet.

I might be wrong as everyone gets fit and the season plays out, but with Mourinho getting slightly more adventurous releasing the shackles for the LB and allowing both fullbacks to push forward not sure we'll get us opening up even further, so reckon the conservative cm2 might be here to stay for a while yet. So unless we're chasing games or injuries etc. probably going to be two out of Hojbjerg/Winks/Sissoko in the centre of the park on rotation for a bit longer.

 

[nailsy]

If Winks played for anyone other than Spurs, I don't think there'd be a single Spurs fan wanting us to get him. He's far from our worst player, and I'm not suggesting he needs to be gotten rid of ASAP, but I really don't get why some are so keen to pretend he's anything other than average.

But he's not at another club. He's a home grown, squad trained player. I don't know why some people are trying to suggest he's rubbish and couldn't be a part of a top four squad, when's he's already been a part of a top four squad, been part of a team that got to the champions league final and was possibly our best player in the final. He's not going to start every game, but he's good enough to play a role for us.

 

[RikkiRocket]

I'm fairly sure Shady was never suggesting Winks is a better footballer than Ndombele or Lo Celso - he was just pointing out the reality that both Poch and Mourinho think he's a much better footballer than *you* do.

Being fit to play is also an important part of being a squad player btw...

What does Danny Murphy say tho?

 

[SCUMmucs]

Winks passing sideways or being just calm with the ball - very bad
Winks passing great forward ball - very bad

I wouldn't say that ball is one of the easiest top passes or that ball is massively over hit to their GK either.

video

I think you are missing the biggest thing, did you see how fast and far the ball went!
I hadn’t seen him attempt that pass for the whole of last season. We were joking (not really joking) that it’s worth celebrating whenever he did a lofted long pass even if it was sideways.
This was aggressive, poor but positive. As I said before he’s improving. Still a way to go but I’m not giving up yet.

 

[dtxspurs]

I could be completely wrong but I have a feeling that Winks is appreciated more by people who have played football to a decent level.

To the casual fan he doesn't do much, but I have played with and against similar style players at a much lower level and would pick him over a Sissoko type every time. You know he will always show for the ball, keep it moving and won't give it away, whereas you are more likely to be caught out of position, be left isolated or concede possession with a Sissoko type. There are not many players who are able to recycle possession the way Winks does and that is an underrated skill.

Winks has a lot of areas he can improve in but he is nowhere near as bad as is made out.

He is also not a DM and should never be used as one.

This is so insanely overrated that Winks is able to do this. It’s quite literally the #1 basic skill it takes to be a midfielder. Winks is no better at it than any of your average premier league midfielder and due to the fact it is quite literally all he offers people think he is amazing at it.

 

[punkisback]

This is so insanely overrated that Winks is able to do this. It’s quite literally the #1 basic skill it takes to be a midfielder. Winks is no better at it than any of your average premier league midfielder and due to the fact it is quite literally all he offers people think he is amazing at it.

I think it was his ability to do so under pressure that made him valuable for us. He has shown it in big games for us; but now seems unable to beat the press nor do this at pace.

 

[dtxspurs]

I think it was his ability to do so under pressure that made him valuable for us. He has shown it in big games for us; but now seems unable to beat the press nor do this at pace.

I think he’s bad under pressure, noting the West Ham game recently of his issues under pressure.

 

[PeeEyeEmPee]

But he's not at another club. He's a home grown, squad trained player. I don't know why some people are trying to suggest he's rubbish and couldn't be a part of a top four squad, when's he's already been a part of a top four squad, been part of a team that got to the champions league final and was possibly our best player in the final. He's not going to start every game, but he's good enough to play a role for us.

I'm not really sure why you've gone to the trouble of quoting my post, only to attempt to refute an argument I haven't made.

My point is that the fact that he plays for Spurs appears to cause some to believe he's better than he actually is. I haven't suggested he's rubbish. At all.

 

[Thenewcat]

I'm not really sure why you've gone to the trouble of quoting my post, only to attempt to refute an argument I haven't made.

My point is that the fact that he plays for Spurs appears to cause some to believe he's better than he actually is. I haven't suggested he's rubbish. At all.

There’s a weird thing going on in this thread where any comment about him having any drawbacks or limitations is hating him or saying he’s rubbish. Harry Winks is, to me, an average premier league midfielder. I don’t hate him, and I don’t think he’s rubbish. But I do think average means, or should mean, replaceable/someone we can improve on, and should be at the bottom of our squad at best. Jose pretty clearly has him as our 5th choice CM at the moment behind Hojbjerg, Gio, Tanguy and Sissoko (no matter how many times people quote mins played stats at me this is still the case) which suggests he probably agrees

 

[nailsy]

I'm not really sure why you've gone to the trouble of quoting my post, only to attempt to refute an argument I haven't made.

My point is that the fact that he plays for Spurs appears to cause some to believe he's better than he actually is. I haven't suggested he's rubbish. At all.

You can't see why some people think he's good.
I can't see why some people think he's rubbish.
Sometimes we just can't see what other people see.
I haven't said that you said he was rubbish. At all.

 

[Thenewcat]

You can't see why some people think he's good.
I can't see why some people think he's rubbish.
Sometimes we just can't see what other people see.
I haven't said that you said he was rubbish. At all.

So who were you saying thinks he is rubbish? I’ve not read all 300 pages of this thread but I’ve been active on it a few days and I haven’t seen anyone suggest this is the case. I’m not picking on you, I just don’t know where this narrative that people are picking on winks has come from

 

[dtxspurs]

So who were you saying thinks he is rubbish? I’ve not read all 300 pages of this thread but I’ve been active on it a few days and I haven’t seen anyone suggest this is the case. I’m not picking on you, I just don’t know where this narrative that people are picking on winks has come from

Rubbish might be harsh but I really don't think he's very good.

 

[RikkiRocket]

He’s average. Not rubbish. Would be pivotal at say west ham/Brighton similar. Naturally fell behind in pecking order with our recent purchases and gifting West ham a equalizer didn’t help.

 

[Cochise]

I think Winks' problem is that he's too much of a jack of all trades. He's alright defensively but loses out in the physical tussles and gets turned a lot because he gets too tight. He's an average passer, by which I mean his distribution is more to a man than into their stride, which leads to us moaning about him slowing play down.

He cannot replace Hojbjerg and with GLC able to be the better passer and Sissoko able to be the better defender he finds himself way down the line. It's for this reason that I could see him moving in the summer and us replacing him with someone that is a blend of him and Sissoko.

 

[Joely]

Should stick to playing him in the group stage of the Europa. Not even up for debate that has nowhere near the ability/quality of Ndombele and Lo Celso to take one of their places alongside Hojbjerg in a 3 in the league.

No doubt Sissoko is limited but does seem Mourinho is opting for him over Winks. His physical presence in there alongside Hojbjerg who does the sitting probably sways it for Mourinho. Probably helps in freeing up Ndombele more. Winks, although certainly gives it a go to try and muck in, is still a bit too powderpuff when it comes to the physical side imo.

No problem with him playing the Europa group games and being a backup option in the league behind the likes of Ndombele, Lo Celso and now it seems even Sissoko. Not sure he'll be happy with kind of role though.

 

[Dirtysanchez6]

That's not my point, we can all discuss matters like these which is what forums are for, but you saying he isn't good enough for a top for team it clearly incorrect as he's been kept around by Poch and Jose - that's not done by fluke, there's obviously a reason he is a perm fixture in the side and still get's a healthy number of mins.

That's not actually true, if they were clearly ahead of Winks then you wouldn't be seeing stats like this for example:

Winks 496 mins
Ndombele 423 mins
Lo Celso 299 mins
Sissoko has 430 mins

Only Hojbjerg is clearly ahead of him on 692 mins but he is obviously a mainstay of our midfield.

Tottenham Hotspur - Squad statistics

This is the compact view of club Tottenham with performance data of the competition Overall statistics of current season .

www.transfermarkt.co.uk

What I suspect is that you are guilty of doing what many others have done is that base your team selection on your ideological Spurs lineup which is obvisously without Winks and as a 5th choice which is perfectly fine but the stats show that I'm afraid just isn't the case.

Sorry but your point in this has been totally ruined when all available like tonight winks won’t make the squad ?