Massive Redknapp and Rafa rumour!

[Bus-Conductor]

Interesting to hear people talking about a 'pressing game' Modern day Barcelona and crazy gang Wimbledon both played a pressing game only one being short pass and move the other being almost route one and and press. To get any philosophy into the bones of a club requires time and numerous coaching bodies on the ground to work with all levels at a club. Players need to hear a common message in clear understandable langiage and terminology to do this. Harry certainly has the bodies. However there is a distinction been 'training ground' coaching and game day 'coaching'. The former is a task shared while the latter falls almost entirely to the coach / old fashioned manager. As a game day coach Harry seems to let the players basically take much of the initiative ...the exception being if you are Sandro
In Australia there is an FFA push for 4 3 3 to adopted right through the representative set-up, while being a good system in the short it will only be as effective as the players in the squad....longer term who knows.

Exactly. Bolton under Allardyce also played a pressing game, as do several other teams. In fact many teams in the EPL do it better than we do.

The pressing is just the first "phase". You then need to coach into the players the second "phase". Do you then pass it, retaining possession, which needs good, intelligent, movement coaching as well, or do you hit a long ball and go for territory ? etc etc.

Barca go for possession, Bolton would hit Kevin Davies.

 

[Coyboy]

What I wanted to hear was exactly what Modric had said that contradicted what VDV had said. And to be honest, I don't think it did.



I'm not saying the above players win us every game, and great players will often win games for any manager, but I have always said that this, more than any other philosophy, has what Redknapp has relied upon more than coaching and tactical ability, which is why IMO, despite having some fantastic teams under him, he has actually achieved very little in 20+ years of management, and has on numerous occasions under achieved.

Throughout Redknapp's career I have never ever been impressed with he style of football any of his teams have played routinely, and I don't just mean playing with a swagger, I mean that despite having some great players I have mostly felt his teams were poorly organised, had no over-riding philosophy, played disjointed football and didn't play with any real cohesion.I have been impressed with some of the players he has purchased though.

As far as Modric crediting Redknapp, he only had 8 games under Ramos, and 112 for Redknapp. What else can he say.

You honestly think Bale has improved ? Because I don't. I think in the last 8 months he's gone backwards and the weaknesses in his game aren't being addressed at all. Palacios, Lennon, Dawson, Bassong, Huddlestone, Bale, Defoe, Crouch, Gomes, Hutton, Corluka, Pavlyuchenko; have any of these players improved, or become more rounded players (apart from Hudd, bum bum)?




Sandro possibly wouldn't have played much in the second half of the season if he hadn't been forced on Redknapp in Milan and excelled. Up to that point he was definitely not to the fore of Redknapp's plans. Do I think Redknapp has improved him as a player ? It is really hard to tell because I didn't see much of him in Brazil, but IMLS can maybe answer that better than me.



For me it's both, as they are intertwined aren't they ? Our tactics are Redknapp's aren't they ? How well we employ them will almost certainly be influenced by how well Redknapp coaches them ?



Honestly, I think that's lame. You train/coach everyone at the club, from first team to youth team to play this way, then no matter who is playing, they know this philosophy, they know nothing less than a certain level of movement and work rate is acceptable. I honestly don't understand why playing CL football, or getting injuries should effect a teams ability to carry out a simple work ethic. You might not do it as effectively, but you should still try.

I don't think VDV's quote was necessarily contextualised by his role or personality, or overtly contradicted by Modric's statement. I don't think because of what VDV said that Redknapp doesn't do tactics or doesn't want us to play a certain way at times, I just think that VDV's comments combined with what I see on the pitch suggest that Redknapp talks the talk but does not have the ability to always walk the walk.

We have been here before with all these players- namely Bale. They have no doubt improved and have expressly credited Redknapp with that. That doesn't mean players improve in a constant upward trend and don't fluctuate in form. Look at Rooney twelve months ago or Fernando Torres up to now etc. And the argument that Bale only got his chance because x, y, z dovetails with Sandro's 'chance'. So what? You don't think as young and inexperienced players they weren't coached at the training ground in the meantime, or managed as people?

The argument regarding Modric's comments of 'oh he would say that' is weak. He didn't have to say it. He didn't have to shit on Ramos.

I agree that there hasn't, or wasn't always last season a cohesive illustration of tactical or even stylistic football. I haven't let Redknapp off the hook in that way. But of course injuries and fatigue are going to play a part because depending on the player, they inhibit the system you are trying to create or instill.

The key word there is 'always'. No body is saying that and while we should strive for some semblance of perfection and improvement, what some of us here are doing is trying to refute the suggestion that Redknapp is tactically inept. He's not Fergie but he isn't your average Sunday League mug who says 'just fucking get rid of it'. From the hubris and arrogance from non-footballers here, you would have that he was in that realm of stupidity.

VDV's comments were spun, here and elsewhere. What he said was a rather gimmicky and sardonic referral to an over use of footballing science (to which Redknapp isn't as averse as his persona suggests) and a deferral to natural talent and improvisation- referring as I remember to his goal against Inter and a Bale header. It was used by you and others as a stick to beat Redknapp with.

Luka Modric's comments plainly put into context what he said and contradicted the spin of 'Redknapp=no/shit tactics' to bed. He didn't say he succeeded in everything he was trying to achieve- from pressing to keeping the ball but that that was his ethos. Personally up to December 2010, and thereafter more and more intermittently we were doing that. But as we all know, the wheels came off as the season progressed.

Redknapp is utlimately responsible for that. But that doesn't take away the good work he has done hitherto.

 

[terrynaylorsboots]

Arry is a numpty

 

[Spurs1960]

There were plenty of games last season where we were outplayed or losing at half time and turned things around in the second half.

You must all be delighted Harry wasn't able to talk to the players at half time to have that impact.

Last season was the first season playing Champions League and the Premier League. We did not know how it would affect the players both physically and mentally. Nobody knew, not Harry, not the coaching staff, not the players, none of them had experienced it.

It has a significant effect late season. Did it mentally drain them as well?

Rotate I hear you say, well you can only do that if the players you want to bring in are good enough and our back up players weren't. Pav, Keane, Bentley, Hutton, Gio, Krancjar, Kaboul, Bassong, Defoe do not cut the mustard, they are not top 4 players.

We had a bloody good team or squad of about 15 but that is all we had so throw in injuries and 4th was always going to be very tough.

Sandro was definitely not to the fore of Harry's plans. What utter rubbish.

Sandro had come from Brazil, he had to learn to settle in a new country, a new system, a new style of play. When he arrived I for one didn't expect to see him until christmas. In his "help to get used to the English game" game against Arsenal he showed me he was going to be an excellent player to which all my Arsenal mates disagreed. If I could see it I'm sure Harry could, indeed he wouldn't have been bought if we hadn't seen something and been in his plans.

 

[Spurs1960]

Edited the duplication out.

 

[Black]

Double

 

[Black]

There were plenty of games last season where we were outplayed or losing at half time and turned things around in the second half.

Wouldn't that mean harry wasn't setting out the team right in the first place :shrug:

Having needed the half time break to sort his mistakes out

 

[GDG]

So then, has the OP passed on the sufficient info to a mod/admin yet, or are we treating this with the contempt it obviously deserves?

yes i have but i've got no response as of yet

He has passed on information to us and, given the source, it is quite possibly true. On that basis, if you want to treat it with contempt please feel free to do so, but without slagging off the original poster, who deserves our usual SC welcome and thanks for providing information in good faith and who may be the source of more information down the road.

We all like to get hold of information that only a select few are privy to, if we constantly flame people who are in possession of that information they will very likely stop sharing on here and take their tidbits elsewhere.

That said, we also try to establish where people are getting their information from in order that the mods/admins feel comfortable supporting the people providing us with the juicy gossip, which hopefully then provides some credibility to what you read.

It will never be a perfect system and, as has been said a thousand times, the vast majority of information we read cannot be verified or may not come to fruition, but rest assured we try to keep it real and will weed out people we think are taking everyone for a ride as quickly as we can.

 

[stemark44]

I believe the original posters story..............I mentioned a few things that worried me during the game and this pretty much confirmed what I was thinking.

 

[bensayid]

I have spoken to GDG and told him where my info comes from. I hope now people will refrain from the bs stuff.

 

[mattyspurs]

He has passed on information to us and, given the source, it is quite possibly true. On that basis, if you want to treat it with contempt please feel free to do so, but without slagging off the original poster, who deserves our usual SC welcome and thanks for providing information in good faith and who may be the source of more information down the road.

We all like to get hold of information that only a select few are privy to, if we constantly flame people who are in possession of that information they will very likely stop sharing on here and take their tidbits elsewhere.

That said, we also try to establish where people are getting their information from in order that the mods/admins feel comfortable supporting the people providing us with the juicy gossip, which hopefully then provides some credibility to what you read.

It will never be a perfect system and, as has been said a thousand times, the vast majority of information we read cannot be verified or may not come to fruition, but rest assured we try to keep it real and will weed out people we think are taking everyone for a ride as quickly as we can.

So then, has the OP passed on the sufficient info to a mod/admin yet, or are we treating this with the contempt it obviously deserves?

I have spoken to GDG and told him where my info comes from. I hope now people will refrain from the bs stuff.

I will apologise for my comments, but as with all ITK I will take it with a pich of salt, this not only applies to your info, but all ITK aswell

 

[sloth]

It's so hard on topics like this because even if a poster has a genuine source it doesn't mean on occasion he can't find himself exaggerating or stretching the truth to back-up his own argument.

I remember on the ITK thread this window thinking something like that may have occurred; all of sudden instead of two equals debating an issue on which they disagreed, one says along the lines of "well you're wrong, because I know..." and that is the end of that, because you can't continue the debate without infringing the rules of the site.

What I would say is that ITK who have a grudge against Harry never seem to have inside knowledge which supports him and those who back him never seem to have ITK which undermines him. Why is that?

 

[mattyspurs]

It's so hard on topics like this because even if a poster has a genuine source it doesn't mean on occasion he can't find himself exaggerating or stretching the truth to back-up his own argument.

I remember on the ITK thread this window thinking something like that may have occurred; all of sudden instead of two equals debating an issue on which they disagreed, one says along the lines of "well you're wrong, because I know..." and that is the end of that, because you can't continue the debate without infringing the rules of the site.

What I would say is that ITK who have a grudge against Harry never seem to have inside knowledge which supports him and those who back him never seem to have ITK which undermines him. Why is that?

Agendas :grin:

 

[Bus-Conductor]

We have been here before with all these players- namely Bale. They have no doubt improved and have expressly credited Redknapp with that. That doesn't mean players improve in a constant upward trend and don't fluctuate in form. Look at Rooney twelve months ago or Fernando Torres up to now etc. And the argument that Bale only got his chance because x, y, z dovetails with Sandro's 'chance'. So what? You don't think as young and inexperienced players they weren't coached at the training ground in the meantime, or managed as people?

But them being coached or managed is obligatory. It's part of the contractual obligation for both parties. That's not the issue, it's the quality of coaching and the way they are "managed" that I have an issue with.

There's a quantum difference between a proven player having a dip in form - but being played regardless or rested for a couple of games - and what happened to Bale, who was virtually not played by Redknapp for 16 months and was on the verge of being sold or loaned to Nottingham Forest. And Sandro had clearly dropped out of Redknapp's plans (not played for 12 games) after making a mistake at Bolton which cost a goal and would not have played in the San Siro if both Modric and Huddelstone were match fit.
I don't mind if the options he choses are better or more effective but they weren't.

In football there will always be an element of luck, chance and serendipity, I accept that, but in Redknapp's case it accounts for too much of his philosophy and that is my concern. Luck always runs out, and history shows that Redknapp's is no different.

The argument regarding Modric's comments of 'oh he would say that' is weak. He didn't have to say it. He didn't have to shit on Ramos.

Of course it's not weak. Of the millions of times footballers have been asked what do you think of your manager, how many times have you heard one say "he's a bit shit". What Modric said is just about what I've heard every player say about every manager that has ever managed, it's weak to claim it as meaningful unless you could back it up with personal testimony following a long conversation with the player himself. And how did he shit on Ramos ? Previously when signed he said "I came to Tottenham because Ramos spoke to me" blah blah blah etc. You get my point. Footballers do not want to get on the wrong side of the man that has their career in his hands.

I agree that there hasn't, or wasn't always last season a cohesive illustration of tactical or even stylistic football. I haven't let Redknapp off the hook in that way. But of course injuries and fatigue are going to play a part because depending on the player, they inhibit the system you are trying to create or instill.

At the start of the season ?

The key word there is 'always'. No body is saying that and while we should strive for some semblance of perfection and improvement, what some of us here are doing is trying to refute the suggestion that Redknapp is tactically inept. He's not Fergie but he isn't your average Sunday League mug who says 'just fucking get rid of it'. From the hubris and arrogance from non-footballers here, you would have that he was in that realm of stupidity.

The problem is, sometimes his tactics are actually that bad and show worryingly naive traits. And there is a long history of this (his tactical limitations) . Look at last weeks tactics. They were mind boggling inept and not even to the those of us who usually analyse them in detail. To even the most basic untrained eye.

And I also posted (can't remember which thread now, this or the other one around at the moment) observations of mine in a ratings thread, which directly correlate with an article blogged by someone completely independent of this site relating to the Wolves away game - and for the record I could have posted more correlations in observations - as could others on here I'm sure.

The lack of preparation at set pieces for example is staggering. His penchant for "opening" games up that need closing is really, really unintelligent.

I know Redknapp does tactics, and he doesn't always get them wrong, but IMO (and I'm not alone, and it not just fans on forums who have expressed these doubts) his tactics and their application show an underlying naivety and lack of thoroughness, and his teams show a distinct lack of basic tactical awareness as well. It is this basic thing that is my biggest concern, as many managers aren't that great tactically. Wenegr isn't and Mancini definitely isn't. But they introduce a basic level of coached tactical awareness and preparedness into their players.

Bale is a great example. The kid finally gets his chance under Redknapp, impresses, plays a couple of blinders then for the next 14 months shows virtually no sign at all of improving. His play has become predictable, and worst of all the other aspects of his game are ignored - such as what he should be doing when the opposition have the ball and his work rate when not in possession. Very, very basic stuff like his willingness to track back properly. Giggs was brilliant at this and I have a feeling if Bale went to Utd, he would be much better at it by now. The worrying thing is, I think if Bale were at Everton or Stoke he would be better at it too.

VDV's comments were spun, here and elsewhere. What he said was a rather gimmicky and sardonic referral to an over use of footballing science (to which Redknapp isn't as averse as his persona suggests) and a deferral to natural talent and improvisation- referring as I remember to his goal against Inter and a Bale header. It was used by you and others as a stick to beat Redknapp with.

Luka Modric's comments plainly put into context what he said and contradicted the spin of 'Redknapp=no/shit tactics' to bed. He didn't say he succeeded in everything he was trying to achieve- from pressing to keeping the ball but that that was his ethos. Personally up to December 2010, and thereafter more and more intermittently we were doing that. But as we all know, the wheels came off as the season progressed.

Redknapp is utlimately responsible for that. But that doesn't take away the good work he has done hitherto.

We are not going to agree re these two statements. VDV's comments were no more spun than you are spinning Modric's. I am not claiming Redknapp doesn't do tactics, or doesn't desire certain aspects to his team's style of play. I have and am claiming that VDV's comments are just one of many indicators that Redknapp's methodology is flawed and his ability to achieve his allegedly stated desires is questionable.

 

[michaelden]

I have spoken to GDG and told him where my info comes from. I hope now people will refrain from the bs stuff.

Thank you for passing on the info. I'm not a Harry fan but even I was sceptical. Apologies. It just doesn't bode well for us if this is the case

 

[RJ1882]

He matched the bigger sides with wins against Arsenal, Liverpool, AC Milan and Inter Milan last season.
Have to admit I am glad Crouch has gone for this reason. YEs, it worked at times. Rafa might not have scored so many had it not been for Crouch, but the team might have scored a lot more. I hope to god Adebayor doesnt become our new Crouch..... lump it to man.
I am not convinced, yet, there is a hidden agenda by some to remove Harry from his post. That will likely happen by itself, either court case, England, or dare a say it, home defeats to Liverpool and Arsenal at home while picking up a point or 2 on the road.
2 from 8? Couldnt............ could it?

Off course it couldnt :razz:

Brilliant performance yesterday. So happy today.

 

[tototoner]

only just read this thread but I am sure things like that are said in the dressing room all the time and in my honest opinion they should stay there