Identity vs Success

Metalhead

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2013
Messages
16,880
Thing is that priorities do change over the years. I’m not enthused about the forensic analysis of on the field tactics and statistics and people’s obsession with net spend and club finances but that’s important to fans these days.
 

Mungo63

Active Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2020
Messages
79
Thing is that priorities do change over the years. I’m not enthused about the forensic analysis of on the field tactics and statistics and people’s obsession with net spend and club finances but that’s important to fans these days.
Spot on, I read people on here talking about tactics and formations, most of it is nonsense. Until sky came along you either went to the game or saw 5 minutes on MOTD. I’m sure most of the forum experts don’t go to games.
 

Metalhead

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2013
Messages
16,880
Spot on, I read people on here talking about tactics and formations, most of it is nonsense. Until sky came along you either went to the game or saw 5 minutes on MOTD. I’m sure most of the forum experts don’t go to games.
The extent of people's criticism used to be along the lines of: "so and so is a donkey" but now everyone can manage a team including picking the perfect side.
 

hellava_tough

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2005
Messages
7,390
I've supported the club since 1990 and in that time we've pretty much done everything as a club (goodand bad!) except have a trophy winning streak or a period of dominance, etc.

I'd happily take crap football for 3 or 4 years if it meant 5 or 6 honours. It would also help us to foster a big-club, winning mentality that we haven't had for decades.
 

Mungo63

Active Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2020
Messages
79
The extent of people's criticism used to be along the lines of: "so and so is a donkey" but now everyone can manage a team including picking the perfect side.
I see people talking about a low press versus a high press, we all just used to shout “push up”

🤷‍♂️
 

vegassd

The ghost of Johnny Cash
Joined
Aug 5, 2006
Messages
2,992
I think there's also a distinction between exciting football and exciting games. To my mind, being called a "flair team" as we were in the late 80s-90s was a polite way of saying we were soft. Being called a "cup team" was like saying we need luck to win anything and didn't have the consistency to challenge for the league.

During those times though we had plenty of exciting games and I think that maybe adds a tint of rose to those periods when you look back. One that stands out for me was the 5-4 defeat to Arsenal in 2004... I don't think we played with any particular style or flair in that game, it was just a mental game. I remember feeling gutted at the time (and also like we were outplayed) but I also look back now and think that was an exciting game and an exciting team we had.

Fast forward to 2019 and the CL games against City and Ajax were probably the most excited I've been about football in my life. Again, I don't think we played with any particular "flair" in either game (maybe City first leg?) but the games were crazy. I don't think anybody would describe those games as "winning well" but they will live long in the memory, helped by the fact the results went our way. I think there is as much glory in that as there is in losing with style.

But really it's all about context. Had money not come into the game as much as it had then maybe we could have remained as a "flair team" and picked up a couple more trophies than we have in the last 30 years. But the money did arrive and it brought with it a requirement for pragmatism. In the past 30 years there have only been 4 occasions when the FA cup was won by a team outside the 5 big money clubs. In the 30 years before that the spread of winners was far greater.

So I don't want to sound like I'm crapping on quotes from the likes of Blanchflower and Nicholson, but I would say that they were made during a time when football was very different to how it is now and our club was very different to how it is now. It's very easy to say you want to play with style when you are winning things left, right and centre. But I don't think a player would get away with saying that today if the club was nowhere near winning.

If we were to go another 20 years without winning anything - flair football or not - I think it would be our own fans who would die of boredom.
 

spursfan1991

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Messages
1,120
The fact that this thread exists shows where the problem lies for spurs amd why we dont win anything. Mentality is all wrong with too many fans.

I doubt this type of thread exists in a pool, mancs, chelsea or arse forum.
 

rez9000

16:3:11:9
Joined
Feb 8, 2007
Messages
9,186
I think there's also a distinction between exciting football and exciting games. To my mind, being called a "flair team" as we were in the late 80s-90s was a polite way of saying we were soft. Being called a "cup team" was like saying we need luck to win anything and didn't have the consistency to challenge for the league.

During those times though we had plenty of exciting games and I think that maybe adds a tint of rose to those periods when you look back. One that stands out for me was the 5-4 defeat to Arsenal in 2004... I don't think we played with any particular style or flair in that game, it was just a mental game. I remember feeling gutted at the time (and also like we were outplayed) but I also look back now and think that was an exciting game and an exciting team we had.

Fast forward to 2019 and the CL games against City and Ajax were probably the most excited I've been about football in my life. Again, I don't think we played with any particular "flair" in either game (maybe City first leg?) but the games were crazy. I don't think anybody would describe those games as "winning well" but they will live long in the memory, helped by the fact the results went our way. I think there is as much glory in that as there is in losing with style.

But really it's all about context. Had money not come into the game as much as it had then maybe we could have remained as a "flair team" and picked up a couple more trophies than we have in the last 30 years. But the money did arrive and it brought with it a requirement for pragmatism. In the past 30 years there have only been 4 occasions when the FA cup was won by a team outside the 5 big money clubs. In the 30 years before that the spread of winners was far greater.

So I don't want to sound like I'm crapping on quotes from the likes of Blanchflower and Nicholson, but I would say that they were made during a time when football was very different to how it is now and our club was very different to how it is now. It's very easy to say you want to play with style when you are winning things left, right and centre. But I don't think a player would get away with saying that today if the club was nowhere near winning.

If we were to go another 20 years without winning anything - flair football or not - I think it would be our own fans who would die of boredom.
This is the crux of it for me. As you say, it was a different time. Danny Blanchflower was an intelligent man; but what's more he was an idealistic man. What, to my mind, he described with his words about the glory of the game is the ideal. It's what fans, players and club should strive for wherever possible. But that doesn't mean automatically sacrificing success to it. Yes, the game should be glorious and exciting and memorable. But winning something is glorious; winning something is exciting and memorable. Some would argue it's the most memorable thing about the game.

The Ajax game, for example, will stick in my memory forever. But I know that in a few years' time, as the grey continues its onward march across my scalp, and the old marbles start rattling around in the brainbox, It'll take me longer to remember what year we almost won the Champions League than the years we did win our League titles, our FA Cups, our League Cups, etc.
 

glospur

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 19, 2015
Messages
2,514
This is simply untrue
Fair enough. As I said, that was the impression I always got from the outside looking. There were plenty of times I would watch Spurs and someone like Martin Tyler or John Champion on commentary would talk about Spurs identity of playing attacking football and how it was ingrained in the fabric of the club. I never heard it phrased quite the same way about other clubs, and I've seen in docos and the like people say similar things. For example theres a North London doco on YouTube I think that talks about how Spurs were always the entertainers compared to the dour Arsenal teams of the early 90s and late 80s (from memory), but if it's not quite accurate then fair enough.

I think there's also a distinction between exciting football and exciting games. To my mind, being called a "flair team" as we were in the late 80s-90s was a polite way of saying we were soft. Being called a "cup team" was like saying we need luck to win anything and didn't have the consistency to challenge for the league.

During those times though we had plenty of exciting games and I think that maybe adds a tint of rose to those periods when you look back. One that stands out for me was the 5-4 defeat to Arsenal in 2004... I don't think we played with any particular style or flair in that game, it was just a mental game. I remember feeling gutted at the time (and also like we were outplayed) but I also look back now and think that was an exciting game and an exciting team we had.

Fast forward to 2019 and the CL games against City and Ajax were probably the most excited I've been about football in my life. Again, I don't think we played with any particular "flair" in either game (maybe City first leg?) but the games were crazy. I don't think anybody would describe those games as "winning well" but they will live long in the memory, helped by the fact the results went our way. I think there is as much glory in that as there is in losing with style.

But really it's all about context. Had money not come into the game as much as it had then maybe we could have remained as a "flair team" and picked up a couple more trophies than we have in the last 30 years. But the money did arrive and it brought with it a requirement for pragmatism. In the past 30 years there have only been 4 occasions when the FA cup was won by a team outside the 5 big money clubs. In the 30 years before that the spread of winners was far greater.

So I don't want to sound like I'm crapping on quotes from the likes of Blanchflower and Nicholson, but I would say that they were made during a time when football was very different to how it is now and our club was very different to how it is now. It's very easy to say you want to play with style when you are winning things left, right and centre. But I don't think a player would get away with saying that today if the club was nowhere near winning.

If we were to go another 20 years without winning anything - flair football or not - I think it would be our own fans who would die of boredom.
Fantastic post, thanks. Great point about football completely changing since the days of Bill Nic and Blanchflower.
The fact that this thread exists shows where the problem lies for spurs amd why we dont win anything. Mentality is all wrong with too many fans.

I doubt this type of thread exists in a pool, mancs, chelsea or arse forum.
How so? I said I don't know the answer to these questions and I think it's an interesting point of discussion. In fact, I'm sure I've seen similar discussions in the years since Sir Alex left United in regards to them not being a 'spending team' (their words). I've also seen Man City fans discuss something similar in regards to the effect that the Middle East money had on their identity.

I would actually argue that this type of discussion is more poignant now than it ever has been with the amount of money in the game and pressure that's built to be successful from social media and a 24/7 news cycle. Clubs at the top level are moving away from fans, working class clubs are becoming gentrified, and the financial realities are worlds apart from the average fan. Club and fan identity is probably a more valid discussion than ever at the moment. Look at West Ham and their move to the London Stadium for example.
 

Fergus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2004
Messages
429
I always feel Blanchflower should have added a qualifying sentence to his quote.....
"Of course that's easier to say when you have the two hardest men in the First Division - Maurice Norman and Dave Mackay - stopping the opposition from playing in the first place."
 

midge

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Messages
310
I think our fixation with Blanchflower statement and our identity has become an excuse for our lack of success and a empty trophy cabinet.

We have been mocked so many times with "It’s so poor. And Tottenham historically…it’s what I always think of them – never ready, weak.”,
"Three point lane"

But we always fall back on " winning is not everything for Spurs . " It has become a weight around our neck. We use it too easily to excuse for our lack of a winning tradition.
 

glospur

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 19, 2015
Messages
2,514
I think our fixation with Blanchflower statement and our identity has become an excuse for our lack of success and a empty trophy cabinet.

We have been mocked so many times with "It’s so poor. And Tottenham historically…it’s what I always think of them – never ready, weak.”,
"Three point lane"

But we always fall back on " winning is not everything for Spurs . " It has become a weight around our neck. We use it too easily to excuse for our lack of a winning tradition.
Yeah, I can see this. As I said in the OP, it can be a millstone at times. I remember under AVB, and even some games under Poch, where you could hear the very audible unrest from the WHL crowd through the TV if we were passing sideways or weren't dominating possession.

I agree with @Shadydan too though. it doesn't have to be an either/or situation, but I think it's an interesting time for the discussion after half a decade of great football but no trophies under Poch to now what is perceived as negative football by some under a manager who's won it all, and that's why I'm interested to know if people think there is a point where too much is given up in the pursuit of trophies.
 

parj

NDombelly ate all the pies
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Messages
2,225
Mourinho can play attacking football when he has the balls to. His first 5 games proved it. Our defence is not any better so it's clear we are focusing on a style but I'm not convinced the players know what the style is.

Mourinho needs to look at his squad and trust it to play attacking football. He can steal teach it to defend.
 

dontcallme

SC Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Messages
19,403
Another common old phrase was “Liverpool win the league, Spurs win the cups.”

Spurs from 60s-80s were known as a footballing side but 90s onwards we haven’t really played good football anymore than numerous other clubs.

Young Arsenal fans believe they have a history of playing good football.

Basically we should hire a manager on at least 10 factors ahead of a 50 year old quote.
 

absolute bobbins

Vous Êtes Des Assassins
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
10,529
Thing is that priorities do change over the years. I’m not enthused about the forensic analysis of on the field tactics and statistics and people’s obsession with net spend and club finances but that’s important to fans these days.
Fans prattling on about finance and lately the marketing/commercial side makes for some of the most painful reading.

Most of them simply don't have a clue yet talk with such conviction. It would be maddening if it wasn't so funny.
 

freeeki

Arsehole.
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
6,646
I'm tired of how many excuses our fans make for not winning shit.

The latest - that winning things might risk making us boring - really is barking mad.
 

wrd

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2014
Messages
7,604
I'm tired of how many excuses our fans make for not winning shit.

The latest - that winning things might risk making us boring - really is barking mad.
Sunday was boring :sleep:
 
Top