A question about goats

[rez9000]

So, Lionel Messi has won his sixth Ballon d’Or.

As we know, the Ballon d’Or has been pretty much a monopoly the last few years and it has me wondering:

Is Lionel Messi really the Greatest of All Time?

Before I’m dragged over the coals, let me say that I don’t deny that he’s a great footballer, or that he Is as good as his many accolades suggest. I’m more interested in knowing why he’s considered so good, what it is that he does that garners him the awards and sobriquet.

Point 1: I understand that he scores a lot of goals. But does he not score them in a league where there are only really two or three strong clubs? And if his goal-scoring prowess is so good, why has he not managed to turn it on for his country? Is the fact that he has only ever played in one league his entire career not something to be considered?

Point 2: Does his playing position elevate or inflate the regard he is held in? This looks more toward the point that the Ballon d’Or seems mostly to go attacking players. Virgil van Dijk coming second this year is seemingly being treated as rather unusual. So, is Messi seen as being so good because hedoes something that is very visible?

Point 3: extending from Point 2, what constitutes ‘good’ or ‘great’? What is it that a footballer is judged on that leads to people concluding that he is one of the GOAT?

So, that’s what’s bouncing round my noggin re Messi.

Would just like to reiterate that I’m not saying he ISN’T one of the GOAT, just would like to know why he is felt to be.

 

[Hakkz]

Personally I think he is. People's opinion on it will always be different depending on when they grew up. I don't really know anything about players like Pele, Eusebio or even Maradona (born in 91).

But aren't most players considered GOATs mainly one club players? I think it's more relevant what level that club is at. If they are a dominant force, like Barcelona has pretty much been since Messi came through, then that's what you should be looking at.

I think it mainly comes down to what player you feel is the best based on what you think make a good footballer. My other candidate based on footballing ability alone would be Ronaldinho (not taking into account players that were active before I was born). Maybe original Ronaldo, but I feel his career was a bit short. I don't really care about achievements with the national team anymore.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

sobriquet.

noggin

Fuckoff. Like you know a word like that and noggin in the best you can come up with for your swede

 

[Haddock]

Sports achievements and sports achievers are the kind of subjects that will be discussed to death and there will never be a clear cut answer. There's obviously no real science behind it. But if I'm not mistaken, it's journos and past pro players that take a vote and they calculate it from there. That's probably as good as it gets.

Anyway, I do rate him as the GOAT and not just for the goals. He's just so special. I remember how some neuroscientist speculated if Messi's brain were wired differently to everyone else's considering his ball control, his reactions, anticipation etc. No idea about that but I've had the pleasure to watch Messi up close at the Camp Nou and he was otherworldly.

I feel like consistency on a high level is of more importance than the amount of clubs and leagues that the player has represented. Also, La Liga, just like other top leagues have a few dominant teams but it's not like the likes of Sevilla and Valencia for example are pushovers. Just look how well some of the La liga teams have done in the europa league and CL. Premier league teams have sort of turned the tide at this point in history and are doing very well, but a La liga team have won the CL 6 times out of the last 10 years. Even it's "just" Barcelona and Real Madrid - it's still a testament to how strong the league is. The core of those two teams are still players that have come through their academies and / or players that previously have played for other La liga clubs.

I do agree regarding that attackers are put above defenders. It's just age old. It's just that goals win matches, goals are what you remember from matches, goals are the what's spectacular about football. And whilst I do feel like defenders should be given more credit I do understand why it's attackers that are constantly praised.

Also, the fact that Harry Maguire is the most expensive defender of all time has sort of destroyed the chance for any defender, ever, to be gives the Ballon d'or

 

[rez9000]

Fuckoff. Like you know a word like that and noggin in the best you can come up with for your swede

How best to elucidate my cogitations on the manner of my usage of verbiage, my pugnacious interlocutor?

I like to chat proper.

 

[Gassin's finest]

The Ballon D'or is a popularity contest. Jimmy Greaves was as good as Messi, and with a ball that was half a ton heavier.

The real GOAT is in my avatar anyway.

 

[BuryMeInEngland]

Fuckoff. Like you know a word like that and noggin in the best you can come up with for your swede

Fuck Off is now one single word? How millennial of you.

 

[Gassin's finest]

Fuck Off is now one single word? How millennial of you.

Get with the times Boomer

 

[BuryMeInEngland]

Get with the times Boomer

Thank you! That was the reply I was hoping for!

 

[Col_M]

Did the have the Ballon D’or when Gary Doherty was in his prime?

 

[rez9000]

Did the have the Ballon D’or when Gary Doherty was in his prime?

I think they suspended it that year, because it wouldn't have been fair on the rest of world football to compete with his singular genius.

 

[yankspurs]

Fuckoff. Like you know a word like that and noggin in the best you can come up with for your swede

You really missed an opportunity not logging into @The Goat for this post.

 

['O Zio]

It's always a tricky one because you can't really define what "great" is definitively so it's entirely subjective.

For me, there's an argument that Messi is the "best" player of all time in terms of pure ability, but he's not the "greatest" of all time by a long stretch because of all kinds of factors. For me to be great takes so much more than just being the most talented player. That's why it will always be Maradona for me. He dragged himself through kicking and screaming, overcoming all kinds of adversity and setbacks even when he came over to Barca and managed to fight his way to a world cup with Argentina and fight his way to a Scudetto with Napoli etc. That to me is a far bigger achievement than just being the best player on the pitch at one of the top clubs in the world and winning La Liga all the time. Add to that all the usual arguments about Maradona playing on crap pitches, getting the shit kicked out of him all game etc. then it's just a no brainer for me. There's a reason why Maradona is practically a god in Argentina and Messi isn't. Also I think all true greats in any field seem to be total oddball characters and Maradona has that in bagfuls, even if it's usually to his detriment. Messi on the other hand is a kind of nice-boy boring guy with very little personality.

Messi has come through an elite academy in Europe, been pampered at every turn, even basically pumped full of all kinds of chemicals to make him grow properly. He's has virtually everything given to him to make sure he's in the perfect environment to be the best. To use a rather poorly constructed analogy, Messi to me is like a lab-created diamond or something. He may well be near-flawless but a slightly inferior quality genuine diamond that's been forged over millions of years and mined from "the rough" etc. etc. will always be more special than a "flawless" artificially created one.

Obviously plenty will disagree, but that's my two cents on it. And don't get me started on fucking Pele. Not fit to wash the boots of either Maradona or Messi.

 

[spursfan77]

I’ve seen him live once last season and Ronaldo probably a handful of times. In the evidence I’ve seen live with my own eyes, Messi is the better footballer out of the two. That’s all I’d say. Best footballer ever is different than greatest player ever though. He’s the greatest player but best footballer, I’m not sure. Zidane was amazing for example.