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Poch: In or Out? - You CAN change your vote

Should Poch stay or go?

  • Stay

    Votes: 657 55.3%
  • Go

    Votes: 532 44.7%

  • Total voters
    1,189
May 17, 2018
11,872
47,993
Ask yourself a question. Has Poch been backed in the transfer market. Secondly the players downing tools are obviously players those seeing there contracts out and ones Poch wanted to sell...but hey Levy is Levy. You bring any manager in now he'll still have to shift a lot of player imo

Apparently, yes. That is becoming an excuse people keep making for him that is a joke.

Ask yourself these:
- How many of our players are coveted by other teams? (when they turned up)
- How many have done it before for seasons?
- How many teams would kill for a Harry Kane or a Son Heung-min?
- How well rated our CB pairing was.

Levy isn't the one making strange tactical choices. He isn't the one refusing to change a team when it's going wrong for some self-documented 'trust' reason. He's not the one who has consistently thrown games away in multiple seasons by brining off our holding midfielders for no reason.

We need to start being realistic - we have a good squad that has talent and has, individually, won big things. It seems more apparently that we have a manager who doesn't know how to use the squad effectively any more. If he doesn't players like Wanyama, he should stop picking and playing them - we've all seen and spoke about it, ITK included.
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
Jeez - why don't most understand that it has no impact what bloody formation you put out there!? Right, last night - for the first 30 mins we started with a diamond, you know the one we all hate so much right? The first 30 mins of the game we were looking like our old selves again and playing with a high press, high intensity - we were knocking on the door and it was only the brilliance of Neuer that kept them in it! After 30-35 mins Poch switched it up to a 4-4-2 and the rest is bloody history. The thing is why was the diamond working then and the 4-4-2 after wasn't? It was because of the system(s) to sum up - first 30 mins we looked brilliant and playing the counter-press, the very same system that Poch started his journey with us. After 30 mins? Totally gassed and exposed midfield. System of play? Revert back to present-day type.

It doesn't matter what formation you want, it only works when you have the system to play it in. The formation is just a framework - it's the things inside the formation that make it work or not.

If you take anything away from any of this, is that that right now the Poch counter-press has entered Bielsa burnout and we just don't have the players to make it work even for 30+ minutes. The only question you need to ask yourself is, can poch utilise any other system that, A: Wins games, B: Keeps players onside and C: doesn't get him the sack!

"We get tired too quickly physically when we play with a diamond midfield," Moussa Sissoko admitted on French TV channel RMC Sport on Tuesday night.

Don't tell me that the formation doesn't make a difference when our own players are coming out saying it.
 

double0

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2006
14,423
12,258
1. Does getting his targets this season count? Sess? Lo Celso & N'Dombele? Furthermore, it was Poch who was being an arse regarding unattainable targets being the only ones that could improve the team. ITK confirmed.

2. The players downing the tools are the ones who don't believe in him and it's more than just your usual contract rebels. Once again ITK confirmed.

But hey Levy, being Levy, so carry on....
He wanted certain players out. He wanted Dybala and another CB, we can look at lots of things , he went a season without buying any players. Poch might have blown it and lost the dressing room etc you could be right.
 

Donki

Has a "Massive Member" Member
May 14, 2007
14,451
18,966
Ask yourself a question. Has Poch been backed in the transfer market. Secondly the players downing tools are obviously players seeing there contracts out and ones Poch wanted to sell...but hey Levy is Levy. You bring any manager in now he'll still have to shift a lot of player imo

Let me ask you something, have you heard of one bid, or any real solid interest in ANY of the players wanting out? Toby for £25M is peanuts, wouldn't even have to haggle with Levy, even before the clause came in, was there any interest? Seam for Eriksen, have we had a report of ANY solid interest or and bid for the player?

The answer is no, and in my opinion the reason is simply this, they were happy to see out their contracts in order to get a free transfer. So they instructed their agents to simply tell any club they weren't interested in a move. How can Levy sell a player if he doesn't get a offer?
 

mrlilywhite

Well-Known Member
Sep 1, 2008
3,174
4,992
"We get tired too quickly physically when we play with a diamond midfield," Moussa Sissoko admitted on French TV channel RMC Sport on Tuesday night.

Don't tell me that the formation doesn't make a difference when our own players are coming out saying it.
It's what you are expected to do within that formation that matters, not the formation itself. The formation doesn't make players work any harder or less. Fundamentally it comes down to the players you have for the system you want to play, the formation just dictates generic roles within it. With Poch's system of the high counter-press, we just don't have the fitness levels to make it work and that isn't the formation, it's the system - sure maybe the two combined have a greater effect than say the 4-3-2-1 with a high counter-press, but the formation alone doesn't knacker them more quickly if you are sticking to just generic roles within the formation.
 

Khilari

Plumber. Sort of.
Jun 19, 2008
3,461
5,287
I'm astonished that so many people on here have voted for him to be sacked.

1. He is literally working with the tools he has been given. I think we all saw the promise of this season after the Champions' League run, but perhaps glossed over our league form.
2. He's been left with players who are no longer fully committed to the club and/or have ongoing contract "discussions" that may not be resolved (Wanyama, Eriksen, Aurier, Rose, Alderweireld, Vertonghen).
3. He hasn't been able to bring in players early to work with.
4. Trippier was not replaced.
5. After not signing a player for over 500 days, he has been able to use one - ONE new signing in Ndombele, who is still adapting to the pace of the Premier League. Which means he is essentially playing the same team as last season otherwise.
6. He has shown his loyalty to us previously.
7. If he does leave, I wonder which manager could be brought in that could improve our performances whilst working on the massively restricted transfer budget MP has been on?
 

mrlilywhite

Well-Known Member
Sep 1, 2008
3,174
4,992
He wanted certain players out. He wanted Dybala and another CB, we can look at lots of things , he went a season without buying any players. Poch might have blown it and lost the dressing room etc you could be right.
Dybala was just an opportune moment that presented itself and I for one can understand exactly why that didn't happen. Poch went a season without buying anyone because he said that there were no players they could get that would strengthen the team.
 

Everlasting Seconds

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2014
14,914
26,616
I'm astonished that so many people on here have voted for him to be sacked.

1. He is literally working with the tools he has been given. I think we all saw the promise of this season after the Champions' League run, but perhaps glossed over our league form.
2. He's been left with players who are no longer fully committed to the club and/or have ongoing contract "discussions" that may not be resolved (Wanyama, Eriksen, Aurier, Rose, Alderweireld, Vertonghen).
3. He hasn't been able to bring in players early to work with.
4. Trippier was not replaced.
5. After not signing a player for over 500 days, he has been able to use one - ONE new signing in Ndombele, who is still adapting to the pace of the Premier League. Which means he is essentially playing the same team as last season otherwise.
6. He has shown his loyalty to us previously.
7. If he does leave, I wonder which manager could be brought in that could improve our performances whilst working on the massively restricted transfer budget MP has been on?
1. His tools are actually great. The very best 11 players at the clubs is a really strong line up.
2. Why are they not fully committed and what is Pochettino's part in their lack of commitment?
3. After five years, whether a new signing arrives in May or August shouldn't be the make it or break it for the entire squad's capability.
4. We had three senior RBs
5. The best players when match fit are good enough to not go 2-7 down vs. Bayern at home regardless of whether a couple of new signings are injured.
6. Loyalty is not enough. This isn't a coffee bar with one free turn after 10 times of paying your dews.
7. The possible options for new manager are interesting enough that I consider it the very least of our worries.
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
It's what you are expected to do within that formation that matters, not the formation itself. The formation doesn't make players work any harder or less. Fundamentally it comes down to the players you have for the system you want to play, the formation just dictates generic roles within it. With Poch's system of the high counter-press, we just don't have the fitness levels to make it work and that isn't the formation, it's the system - sure maybe the two combined have a greater effect than say the 4-3-2-1 with a high counter-press, but the formation alone doesn't knacker them more quickly if you are sticking to just generic roles within the formation.

Right but the players are expected to counter press but you can't counter press if you're tired and the formation is tiring them out, our 2 cm's have to try and cover the wide areas and our midfield gets pulled therefore other players were filling in gaps apart hence why after 30 mins we were gassed.
 

double0

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2006
14,423
12,258
Apparently, yes. That is becoming an excuse people keep making for him that is a joke.

Ask yourself these:
- How many of our players are coveted by other teams? (when they turned up)
- How many have done it before for seasons?
- How many teams would kill for a Harry Kane or a Son Heung-min?
- How well rated our CB pairing was.

Levy isn't the one making strange tactical choices. He isn't the one refusing to change a team when it's going wrong for some self-documented 'trust' reason. He's not the one who has consistently thrown games away in multiple seasons by brining off our holding midfielders for no reason.

We need to start being realistic - we have a good squad that has talent and has, individually, won big things. It seems more apparently that we have a manager who doesn't know how to use the squad effectively any more. If he doesn't players like Wanyama, he should stop picking and playing them - we've all seen and spoke about it, ITK included.
Its not an excuse or a joke you go a season without buying a single player then get 4 players in fairly late one on loan, two injured Ndombele being the only player we've really seen.

How many teams would kill for Kane and Son , your point?

There comes a point when you need to recycle either the manager or players we've had players that Poch has developed Son Kane Eriksen Alli Dier and others weren't the finished article however Poch worked miracles has developed them into better players and got many playing above there capabilities. He should be given more backing imo in the market
 

mrlilywhite

Well-Known Member
Sep 1, 2008
3,174
4,992
Right but the players are expected to counter press but you can't counter press if you're tired and the formation is tiring them out, our 2 cm's have to try and cover the wide areas and our midfield gets pulled therefore other players were filling in gaps apart hence why after 30 mins we were gassed.
The counter-press has been the ultimate culprit for ages now - why do you think Poch pretty much abandoned it? To do what Poch wants his team to do requires a hell of a lot out of them regardless of any formation you put them in. It was the same in the 4-2-3-1 and it's the same, if not worse now. When Poch first came, all of the players he had were young, our oldest was 27-28 I think. The counter-press worked because he had players that had the right physical elements to their game.

One of the critical parts to making it work is having enough quality squad depth to rotate the squad, which over time has been diminishing or at the most replaced by sub-par players that don't fit the three main elements - high natural fitness, concentration and determination. There is more, but essentially right now Poch is asking the players to do something they can not do and the players are asking Poch to do something he can not and that is provide a formation and more crucially a system that works to their strengths. All of this has led to where we are now and in my honest opinion it is the very thing we loved about Poch that is now his Achilles heel and that is his system.
 

Bobbins

SC's 14th Sexiest Male 2008
May 5, 2005
21,548
45,031
My one worry with Poch is that he seems to be regressing tactically.

The blind faith and insistence on a system which doesn’t work and has no proven record of success, coupled with the strange subs, seems to have gone hand in hand with his transformation into a bit of a weirdo.
 

Spurus

Nos Custodimus Quod Lingus
Feb 14, 2019
466
1,028
I'm astonished that so many people on here have voted for him to be sacked.

1. He is literally working with the tools he has been given. I think we all saw the promise of this season after the Champions' League run, but perhaps glossed over our league form.
2. He's been left with players who are no longer fully committed to the club and/or have ongoing contract "discussions" that may not be resolved (Wanyama, Eriksen, Aurier, Rose, Alderweireld, Vertonghen).
3. He hasn't been able to bring in players early to work with.
4. Trippier was not replaced.
5. After not signing a player for over 500 days, he has been able to use one - ONE new signing in Ndombele, who is still adapting to the pace of the Premier League. Which means he is essentially playing the same team as last season otherwise.
6. He has shown his loyalty to us previously.
7. If he does leave, I wonder which manager could be brought in that could improve our performances whilst working on the massively restricted transfer budget MP has been on?

I think he didn't take the Real Madrid job because it has no job security, a few bad results and he would get fired, look at Madrid's track record with managers, they have zero patience. Also, Poch earns an absolute fortune at Spurs, maybe Poch knew that Madrid wouldn't better his current contract especially if he knows they might sack him quickly if things didn't go the way they want.
 
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double0

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2006
14,423
12,258
1. His tools are actually great. The very best 11 players at the clubs is a really strong line up.
2. Why are they not fully committed and what is Pochettino's part in their lack of commitment?
3. After five years, whether a new signing arrives in May or August shouldn't be the make it or break it for the entire squad's capability.
4. We had three senior RBs
5. The best players when match fit are good enough to not go 2-7 down vs. Bayern at home regardless of whether a couple of new signings are injured.
6. Loyalty is not enough. This isn't a coffee bar with one free turn after 10 times of paying your dews.
7. The possible options for new manager are interesting enough that I consider it the very least of our worries.
Your saying his tool are great but at least 3 players vital members of the team are waiting to leave on a Bosman. Trippier made all sort of allegation once he left Spurs however Poch was loyal to him and played him even though he had a poor season he admitted too.

Wanyama Vertonghen Toby Eriksen have all had problem yet Poch has kept them around the squad and played them. Sissoko was getting murdered at one point Poch stood by him and turned him around. The players have underperformed and really let him down. The only contention point was Moura not playing from the start in the CL final last season, but I can understand why Poch would put his house on Harry Kane.
 

Everlasting Seconds

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2014
14,914
26,616
Your saying his tool are great but at least 3 players vital members of the team are waiting to leave on a Bosman. Trippier made all sort of allegation once he left Spurs however Poch was loyal to him and played him even though he had a poor season he admitted too.

Wanyama Vertonghen Toby Eriksen have all had problem yet Poch has kept them around the squad and played them. Sissoko was getting murdered at one point Poch stood by him and turned him around. The players have underperformed and really let him down. The only contention point was Moura not playing from the start in the CL final last season, but I can understand why Poch would put his house on Harry Kane.
The 11 best players presently at the club when match fit (which is another issue) is a really, really strong team. Unquestionable. I think the letdown is not getting more out of them lately.
 

kcmei

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2008
7,112
1,330
Season has just started, and our whole team already look completely knackered
 

double0

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2006
14,423
12,258
Dybala was just an opportune moment that presented itself and I for one can understand exactly why that didn't happen. Poch went a season without buying anyone because he said that there were no players they could get that would strengthen the team.
Was he lying? The players offered to him weren't of the required standard
 

Legacy

SC Supporter
Mar 29, 2007
2,878
6,280
Question for my fellow Poch-inners

If Poch decided to say fuck it, he's going to write this season off in order to prepare for the next one and that means the likes of Aurier, Alder, Vert, Rose being dropped for the likes of KWP, Sanchez, Foyth, Sessegnon in order to develop them. Would you be happy? Obviously I can't imagine all 4 are causing big enough problems but if he decided to drop 2-3 of these from now on to focus on the development of the players he plans on being him next season at the expense of this season would you stick it out until the end or would it be the straw that broke the camels back?

I ask as I don't know how I'd feel about it.
I don't think KWP will ever reach the heights we require from him, but I'd be willing to support the decision as long as:

A: We're clearly informed on the decision and plan
B: Pochettino clearly and unequivocally commits his long term future to the club
C: We start playing a defensive midfielder again
D: We continue to look for improvements, particularly at right back

The current back line is clearly on the decline. What was once the best defence in the country is now a liability and only going to get worse over time. We're already almost certainly going to lose Alderweireld and Vertonghen at the end of the season, and possibly Rose and Aurier, so it's a transition that needs to be made anyway.

If it means taking one step back to potentially take a couple of steps forward over the next couple of years, then so be it.
 
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